French Government Says No to Virginity Test

[Horace]

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@mik said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Horace is right that it is symbolic.

It would seem to Horace and perhaps a few others here, that everything the left does is purely symbolic and of little or no substance. But this is not a left right issue. This is a women's issue within a secular society issue. That is too nuanced for him.

I suppose it may be too nuanced for me. I look forward to the time you broach upon an idea so nuanced that I hadn't already considered it. I do understand that you tend to use historical references as a crutch to indicate such nuance, but unfortunately for you, I'm too nuanced for that.

[Renauda]

@horace

Yes, and is always, you are probably right.

[Jolly]

Nothing nuanced about wanting to run other people's lives, when there is no demonstrable harm to society.

[brenda]

@jolly There's never any honor killings of the daughters?

[Renauda]

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

[Catseye3]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

when there is no demonstrable harm to society.

And what are women in your understanding of 'society'? Chopped liver?

[Jolly]

@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly There's never any honor killings of the daughters?

I suspect in an honor killing, there are laws broken along with harm done to the individual and to French society.

[Jolly]

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

[Jolly]

@catseye3 said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

when there is no demonstrable harm to society.

And what are women in your understanding of 'society'? Chopped liver?

Go back and read what I said.

[Doctor Phibes]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat. In fact, it is illegal so I don't need to.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

[Doctor Phibes]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

To be honest, if there's no medical reason for doing it, yes.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

To be honest, if there's no medical reason for doing it, yes.

In the context of this thread, which is the more invasive procedure (not to mention painful) and more prone to complications, a circumcision or a "virginity check"?

[Doctor Phibes]

I just said I'd outlaw it, so what's the point of the question?

The question regarding virginity check has nothing to do with invasiveness, in any event. It's a method used to keep women in their place, and it has no place in a modern liberal society.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

I just said I'd outlaw it, so what's the point of the question?

The question regarding virginity check has nothing to do with invasiveness, in any event. It's a method used to keep women in their place, and it has no place in a modern liberal society.

The Jewish faith demands circumcision. The Muslim faith highly values the virgin bride. I see more problem with the former than the latter when it comes to personal decisions and the lack of freedom of the individual.

In either case, does it really impact the way society functions?

What business does a modern society enacting laws in either situation create a benefit to society?

[Renauda]

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

[Jolly]

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

It's only invasive if she does not consent.

[Copper]

Yes, let consenting adults take it or leave it

If the man insists and she refuses, that is a good indication that the wedding is probably a bad idea, but that is their business.

[Renauda]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

It's only invasive if she does not consent.

The minuscule libertarian part of me would really like to agree with that sentiment. In the end though, I cannot. It leaves the door too wide open for the perpetuation of cultural practices that have no place in a secular liberal society. The French state is correct to outlaw it.

[brenda]

@jolly Failing a virginity test, whether the daughter is a virgin or not, is often used as the basis for an honor killing of her. Allowing the virginity test puts a young women at risk for murder at the hands of her own family. I would call that harm to society, and especially to the women. The tests can give false results, so even virgins are at risk.

I think about the fear a young woman would have, because within that culture, she knows all about honor killings. No wonder they try to flee.