Patriots Only
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The noose tightens...
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China actually manages to put in place what online patriots elsewhere can only dream of!
What possible complaint could any right-thinking person have about Patriotism being a requirement for government?
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In the podcast thread I mentioned a conversation between Matt Yglesias and Ruy Teixeira. That conversation between two intelligent and rational left leaning centrists. One point they mulled over was the idea of patriotism. That thing the left instinctively shrinks from and the right instinctively embraces. They both understand that patriotism is a ground truth of all societies, one that everybody embraces through action even if not through empty words. It was a refreshingly self-aware conversation.
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Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
I was only joking
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Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
Agreed. Another word people abuse is “Hope”
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Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's like the famous utterance of that judge, I forget who, about that he couldn't define obscenity, but he knew it when he saw it.
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Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
I left the country I was born in, and I'm not a citizen of the country I live in.
So, presumably by your simplistic definition I'm unpatriotic?
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@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
I left the country I was born in, and I'm not a citizen of the country I live in.
So, presumably by your simplistic definition I'm unpatriotic?
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
I left the country I was born in, and I'm not a citizen of the country I live in.
So, presumably by your definition I'm unpatriotic?
Not at all, you love the country you were born in way more than you love the country you live in. And it's not as if you're doing anybody a favor by moving to Canada or to here, you were doing yourself a favor. But your heart resides in the country where you were born.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
I left the country I was born in, and I'm not a citizen of the country I live in.
So, presumably by your definition I'm unpatriotic?
Not at all, you love the country you were born in way more than you love the country you live in. And it's not as if you're doing anybody a favor by moving to Canada or to here, you were doing yourself a favor. But your heart resides in the country where you were born.
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
It's putting the needs of your own country above the needs of other countries. While this sounds nefarious to those who feel first and think second, it's what everybody does by action.
I left the country I was born in, and I'm not a citizen of the country I live in.
So, presumably by your definition I'm unpatriotic?
Not at all, you love the country you were born in way more than you love the country you live in. And it's not as if you're doing anybody a favor by moving to Canada or to here, you were doing yourself a favor. But your heart resides in the country where you were born.
That description is completely at odds with your put-down about people who feel first then think second
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Patriotism is at odds with thinking first and feeling second, for those of us who want to make the hopelessly un-self-aware claim that we consider all lives across the world and all societies to be of equal importance. Patriotism is selfish. You can accept that or you can lie to yourself about it. But even if it’s selfish, it is not unfair or immoral, if everybody else from everywhere else is patriotic too. Which they are. The retreat from patriotism is a particular mental illness born mostly by privileged westerners.
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Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
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Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
My original point was to be suspicious when people use it as a reason for doing something, not that it's inherently bad. There's a very old and famous saying made by Samuel Johnson, the author of one of the first English dictionaries, about it being the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I'd say that the statement by the Chinese government falls under this description pretty well.
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What do the native Chinese people think of it? Are they all scoundrels? Patriots? Indoctrinated automatons? Terrified of expressing what they really think out of fear of retribution?
@horace said in Patriots Only:
What do the native Chinese people think of it? Are they all scoundrels? Patriots? Indoctrinated automatons? Terrified of expressing what they really think out of fear of retribution?
The people of Hong Kong are being brutalized and marginalized in the name of patriotic duty and the glories of Communism. How do you think they feel - patriotic?
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That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
I was only joking
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I think Patriotism is an amoral concept. It can be used for good or bad.
I do think people are re-ordering their values so that Patriotism is moving down the hierarchy.
I agree that leftwingers are more willing to deprioritize it. But even conservatives - I'm starting to see more kinship across political ideologies than countryman.
Said another way - I think that most American conservatives would probably feel more kinship with a UK or Canadian conservative than they would with an American lefty.
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Also, loving one's country isn't the same as thinking it's the greatest place on earth. I know there are plenty of things that are pretty awful about the UK, but when I visit, I still feel as though I'm coming home. That's not a patriotic feeling, it's a feeling of belonging.
There's also a difference between loving your country and supporting the idiots who run it. The idea that I should go along with a war I don't understand because my country has joined it doesn't make sense. My grandfather and his six brothers all volunteered in 1914 out of a sense of patriotic duty. He regretted it for the rest of his life.
