Capitol security woefully unprepared...
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@loki said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
What’s the timing on the photos on the right? Before or after defund the police, the charge outside the whitehouse? I would expect in this environment law enforcement has been ordered to stand down. I won’t say it strongly u reply but I’ve seen this all over the internet and wonder if it fails to consider the new reality of policing.
That's a good point.
The problem I can't get around is that the people on the right didn't just disobey police officers. They didn't just trespass. Their intention was to invade the Capitol and prevent Congress from fulfilling an election. The crime isn't lesser just because there weren't that many, they were unsuccessful and we all find them to be more goofy than scary. None of our laws regarding disrupting the process of government have limitations for any of those things.
Please love yourself.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@loki said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
What’s the timing on the photos on the right? Before or after defund the police, the charge outside the whitehouse? I would expect in this environment law enforcement has been ordered to stand down. I won’t say it strongly u reply but I’ve seen this all over the internet and wonder if it fails to consider the new reality of policing.
That's a good point.
The problem I can't get around is that the people on the right didn't just disobey police officers. They didn't just trespass. Their intention was to invade the Capitol and prevent Congress from fulfilling an election. The crime isn't lesser just because there weren't that many, they were unsuccessful and we all find them to be more goofy than scary. None of our laws regarding disrupting the process of government have limitations for any of those things.
The secret service shot and killed one of them
There were 52 arrested
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For me, the big issue is that had those people yesterday been just a bit more coordinated, enough of them, well armed, could very well have taken over the Capitol, and captured or killed many of our nation's leaders. I never would have believed it possible had we not witnessed it. It's not so much BLM vs Trump supporters - but rather the complete failure of security. Now, it may be that the leadership of the security forces thought that it would look bad to get into a battle with some of the more passionate Trump supporters, but the security of the Capitol should have been the primary focus. If 200 or 300 armed combatants "exercising their second amendment right" go to "the people's house" with the intent of exercising their right to a revolution as Thomas Jefferson suggested, security should be prepared to take whatever action is necessary to stop them. The fact that it was easily known that some of the people coming to DC meant to do harm, makes the current incident particularly disquieting.
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If you look at the position they were in, they could not win no matter what they did. Capitol police were battling the crowd throughout the day, not just sitting on their hands. Further escalation was liable to spin out of control. Considering how many people were there, not all that many breached the Capitol.
As far as the differences between the BLM riots, this event dissolved when the curfew came. There was no need to use harsher measures.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@mik said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
There was no need to use harsher measures.
Attempting to upend an election is not as bad as shaking barricades in Portland?
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“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@mik said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
To my thinking there is no real comparison between the two situations.
So which do you think is worse then?
I keep hearing people saying in earnest that BLM protestors were somehow more "illegal" in their actions than the people yesterday who tried to thwart the counting of electoral college votes.
If you think the BLM protestors are worse, how is that so?
If you think the people yesterday were worse, why then did BLM protestors receive far harsher treatment?
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The Capitol police who were there, for the most part, did their job though it appears that a few encouraged and aided the "revolution." if you listen to the interview I mentioned in the first post, he outlines some of the degree of forces available to the 2,200 Captial police in additoin to the Metropolitan police. Much, much larger forces have been deployed in the past to control crowds that had not intention of assulting the Capitol. This time, there was advance warning that there would be more than peaceful protest - and it is safe to say almost nothing was done to prepare the Capitol from assault. This is incredible, especially in light of the experience in Michigan. For the BLM protests last summer, they had streets blocked off humvees, copters, hundreds of police in riot gear and the National Guard standing by.
What happened yesterday should never happen again.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@mik said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
To my thinking there is no real comparison between the two situations.
So which do you think is worse then?
I keep hearing people saying in earnest that BLM protestors were somehow more "illegal" in their actions than the people yesterday who tried to thwart the counting of electoral college votes.
If you think the BLM protestors are worse, how is that so?
If you think the people yesterday were worse, why then did BLM protestors receive far harsher treatment?
How did Ax get your password?
I would say they got similar treatment. In Portland, your example, they rioted every fucking night for months. They are still protesting according to a friend who lives there. He lives just couple blocks from the stupid red house thing. CHAZ stood for weeks with forbearance. There was very little force used here in Cincinnati against protestors.
As far as which is worse? That's really not a useful determination. Both got out of hand. But to their credit, officials nationwide avoided a Tianenmen Square event.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
I'm having a hard time squaring this and honest to God it'd be good to hear some speculations:
Both groups disobeyed police orders. Why were the people on the left not shot, tear-gassed, detained, or immediately arrested?
Why are the people on the right somehow worse when none of them intended to stop Congress from fulfilling a presidential election? By our own laws, yesterday's actions were more serious by leagues.You want an answer other than the one that's screaming out?
Proud supporter of Plan 2525. Everything you think, do and say will be in the pill you took today.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@mik said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
To my thinking there is no real comparison between the two situations.
So which do you think is worse then?
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood. Portland too, but I'm not sure of the rhetorical value of that travesty when I can just talk about CHAZ.
I keep hearing people saying in earnest that BLM protestors were somehow more "illegal" in their actions than the people yesterday who tried to thwart the counting of electoral college votes.
If you think the BLM protestors are worse, how is that so?
That our society is filled with those who support that initiative more so than it's filled with imbeciles who want to get shot in the head in the process of overtaking the capitol.
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@doctor-phibes said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
I'm having a hard time squaring this and honest to God it'd be good to hear some speculations:
Both groups disobeyed police orders. Why were the people on the left not shot, tear-gassed, detained, or immediately arrested?
Why are the people on the right somehow worse when none of them intended to stop Congress from fulfilling a presidential election? By our own laws, yesterday's actions were more serious by leagues.You want an answer other than the one that's screaming out?
Well, I guess you could say that I question the wisdom of someone who's screaming at me. And I'm honestly interested in trying to be right about my opinions on this, so I want to compare the obvious to things I haven't thought about.
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@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood.
Yeah, that's a good point. They didn't just burn crap down as a one-off, they permanently destroyed a neighborhood.
I also think that what happened yesterday was a goofy, extremely half-assed insurrection that was nonetheless taken seriously by the participants. If they could have gotten away with destroying the electoral college votes they absolutely would have. That's several orders of magnitude worse than trying to overtake barriers at random city X.
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DON’T let them eat cake.
- RFK Jr -
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood.
Yeah, that's a good point. They didn't just burn crap down as a one-off, they permanently destroyed a neighborhood.
I also think that what happened yesterday was a goofy, extremely half-assed insurrection that was nonetheless taken seriously by the participants. If they could have gotten away with destroying the electoral college votes they absolutely would have. That's several orders of magnitude worse than trying to overtake barriers at random city X.
You have a massive non plausible “if” built into your equation.
If the anarchists could achieve their aims it wouldn’t be so minimal.
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@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Trump has to tell these people to stand down.
Since he has been perpetuating the completely horseshit theory that spawned the invasion in the first place, for months, I agree with you that he should have done the opposite thing.
It would have been pretty easy, too.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood.
Yeah, that's a good point. They didn't just burn crap down as a one-off, they permanently destroyed a neighborhood.
I also think that what happened yesterday was a goofy, extremely half-assed insurrection that was nonetheless taken seriously by the participants. If they could have gotten away with destroying the electoral college votes they absolutely would have. That's several orders of magnitude worse than trying to overtake barriers at random city X.
Lots of righteous fury to go around. The thing about righteousness is that if there's sufficient amount in any given head, it allows for anything. Such as stealing electoral votes. I totally get why people were scared of Trump "stealing" this election. They were scared that people who shared their hatred would do what hating people do, and they were scared our systems would not hold up. But, I think our systems held up.
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@loki said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood.
Yeah, that's a good point. They didn't just burn crap down as a one-off, they permanently destroyed a neighborhood.
I also think that what happened yesterday was a goofy, extremely half-assed insurrection that was nonetheless taken seriously by the participants. If they could have gotten away with destroying the electoral college votes they absolutely would have. That's several orders of magnitude worse than trying to overtake barriers at random city X.
You have a massive non plausible “if” built into your equation.
If the anarchists could achieve their aims it wouldn’t be so minimal.
No, no I don't. It might be how you gauge the importance of a situation, but that's not how our laws are written. You try to prevent the federal government from conducting the electoral process, that's an attempt to overthrow, period. You don't get a pass because you were unsuccessful and you didn't look scary in the eyes of the audience watching at home.
As for non-plausible, they literally tried to do that. They went after the records, and were prevented from stealing them by the Senate floor staff.
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@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@loki said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@aqua-letifer said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
@horace said in Capitol security woefully unprepared...:
Definitely the CHAZ overtake of an upper middle class neighborhood.
Yeah, that's a good point. They didn't just burn crap down as a one-off, they permanently destroyed a neighborhood.
I also think that what happened yesterday was a goofy, extremely half-assed insurrection that was nonetheless taken seriously by the participants. If they could have gotten away with destroying the electoral college votes they absolutely would have. That's several orders of magnitude worse than trying to overtake barriers at random city X.
You have a massive non plausible “if” built into your equation.
If the anarchists could achieve their aims it wouldn’t be so minimal.
No, no I don't. It might be how you gauge the importance of a situation, but that's not how our laws are written. You try to prevent the federal government from conducting the electoral process, that's an attempt to overthrow, period. You don't get a pass because you were unsuccessful and you didn't look scary in the eyes of the audience watching at home.
As for non-plausible, they literally tried to do that. They went after the records, and were prevented from stealing them by the Senate floor staff.
We must be talking past each other. Today was as normal as any other day in most people’s lives. I’ve studied much history and can’t think of any other example where this would qualify as a failed coup or a failed revolution. That said I do get your point on the “attempt” even if it was hapless in every manner.
