Vaccine Rollout
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@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap.
LD, you couldn't be more wrong about this. This is science's finest hour. We went from discovery of a novel virus to vaccine in one year. That's absolutely insane.
And yes of course tests and studies turned out to be faulty, that's how scientific investigation works. You're telling me that you think science dropped the ball because they didn't get it right 100% of the time? That's not how it works and never has.
Too busy of a day to get my reply posted to this, but I will get a reply as soon as possible.
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@loki said in Vaccine Rollout:
Life doesn’t get much easier than wearing a mask and getting a vaccine (if only available).
Explain to me how one has any empathy and can fight those two things?
If you've had the vaccine, then the unvaccinated pose virtually no threat to you. Empathy plays no part... Now, until such time as everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated, the unvaccinated should still be required to wear masks.
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
You’ve had science be replaced by politics on both sides and the media. Hell, just look at the story above. 1 out of 6 Pfizer vaccinations in January were compromised because they used the wrong needle and we also discovered that 1 out of 6 doses prior to early January were wasted because nobody could figure out that 30ml divided by 5ml equals 6ml.
I agree with Lufins Dad's sentiment. There are assumptions being made, as always, about what someone thinks, what some corporation (Pfizer) does or did, the usual. How often do we hear something, anything, from whatever source public or private, and find out later it was actually untrue, BS, spin, nonsense. There is a narrative, and an explanation, usually uncovered way after the fact when there is interest, but it doesn't mean anything anymore.
The reason the needle needs to be altered to a different needle, is because the angle of cut at the needle tip is too much of an angle. The nurse (or whomever) cannot get the last drop out, the syringe just sucks air. The new needle will be more painful upon insertion, but with less of an angle, the vial will be much closer to completely empty and the dosage issue of number of vaccinations from each vial will no longer be an issue.
See? It's easy. Not scientific, but wtf, most people would believe.
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap.
LD, you couldn't be more wrong about this. This is science's finest hour. We went from discovery of a novel virus to vaccine in one year. That's absolutely insane.
And yes of course tests and studies turned out to be faulty, that's how scientific investigation works. You're telling me that you think science dropped the ball because they didn't get it right 100% of the time? That's not how it works and never has.
Too busy of a day to get my reply posted to this, but I will get a reply as soon as possible.
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/01/29/800813299/worried-about-catching-the-new-coronavirus-in-the-u-s-flu-is-a-bigger-threat
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/02/01/reality-check-flu-is-a-much-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus/Science and doctors told us masks were useless
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-mask-hysteria-us-trnd/index.html
https://www.c-span.org/video/?470680-3/washington-journal-dr-william-schaffner-discusses-coronavirus-pandemicScience and doctors told us Hydroxychloroquine was effective
https://www.radio.com/talk980am/articles/doctors-hydroxychloroquine-most-effective-covid-treatmentScience and doctors told us "No it isn't!"
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/september/hydroxychloroquine-no-more-effective-than-placebo-in-preventing-covid19Science and doctors told us "IS SO!"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7534595/Science and doctors told us "Nuh uh!"
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/hydroxychloroquine-does-not-benefit-adults-hospitalized-covid-19Science and doctors told us Vitamin D could be important in fighting and preventing COVID-19
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-emerging-evidence-suggests-role-for-vitamin-d-in-coronavirus-severity/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2770157Science and doctors tell us "No way!"
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4912
https://www.businessinsider.com/vitamin-d-doesnt-reduce-coronavirus-severity-study-2020-11"Yes way!" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(21)00003-6/fulltext
Science and doctors say a COVID-19 vaccine will take years to develop - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/30/opinion/coronavirus-covid-vaccine.html
This is just a small bit of the extraordinary back and forth the general public has been hearing about the science of the last year. After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
Me/rry/Christmas
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Okay, fair enough.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
Of course they did. Nobody knew anything back then. This is what happens when you couple instant news with the most radical effort in health sciences in at least a century. People report on what they can at the time, experts get it massively wrong, and the narrative changes as new information develops.
What's the alternative? Get it right all the time? Wait to do your reporting on the most important global event in our lifetimes? The news shouldn't jump the gun, but if we're going to play that game, I'd also like 100 million dollars and my own portal gun.
After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
There have also been many, many extensive articles written about precisely how these vaccines have been developed, and why the traditional vaccines are literally just as safe as the other vaccines nearly everyone in America has already had.
I know that because (1) the pandemic is a big damn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our own information literacy. Especially when it comes to a change as profound as a global pandemic.
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@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
amn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our ownI am not disagreeing with you. You may have noticed that I stated that I intend on getting a vaccine and will recommend others get them as well. All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned. I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned.
I get where you're coming from, but I just can't take it as a legitimate concern. It's the nature of radical social changes that the news is going to get the first drafts wrong, and everyone already knows this. More accurate information comes out daily and it's literally seconds to find. I can't sympathize with railing against the news while at the same time refusing to do a damn google search.
I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
If you don't get vaccinated, you're not living up to your social responsibility, full stop. You cannot convince me that some jackass's "freedom" to stay unvaccinated is more important than suppressing a global pandemic that's killing hundreds of thousands. I don't know what to say about mandatory vaccinations, but I will be judging the shit out of anyone who refuses, and no I don't care if they can't find work or a place to send their kids to school because of their own ignorance or selfishness. I feel exactly the same way about people who don't vaccinate their kids.
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
amn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our ownI am not disagreeing with you. You may have noticed that I stated that I intend on getting a vaccine and will recommend others get them as well. All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned. I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
Mandatory only if you want to participate in society. I agree with incentives to help. Coax people but let them know one choice is not to be a danger to society and our economy.
We can’t accommodate everyone’s fears. A huge preponderance of smart people believe in the vaccine. That’s quite enough for me to say vaccine, here’s your 300-500 bucks for doing so or stay home.
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@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned.
I get where you're coming from, but I just can't take it as a legitimate concern. It's the nature of radical social changes that the news is going to get the first drafts wrong, and everyone already knows this. More accurate information comes out daily and it's literally seconds to find. I can't sympathize with railing against the news while at the same time refusing to do a damn google search.
I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
If you don't get vaccinated, you're not living up to your social responsibility, full stop. You cannot convince me that some jackass's "freedom" to stay unvaccinated is more important than suppressing a global pandemic that's killing hundreds of thousands. I don't know what to say about mandatory vaccinations, but I will be judging the shit out of anyone who refuses, and no I don't care if they can't find work or a place to send their kids to school because of their own ignorance or selfishness. I feel exactly the same way about people who don't vaccinate their kids.
Social Responsibility? To the people that chose the vaccine and are protected? Or the unvaccinated that willingly accept that risk?
If all of the COVID vaccines were at 70% efficacy it would be a different argument as the unvaccinated would pose a danger to others that didn't accept that risk. But at 95% efficacy, the vaccinated are not at risk.
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@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned.
I get where you're coming from, but I just can't take it as a legitimate concern. It's the nature of radical social changes that the news is going to get the first drafts wrong, and everyone already knows this. More accurate information comes out daily and it's literally seconds to find. I can't sympathize with railing against the news while at the same time refusing to do a damn google search.
I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
If you don't get vaccinated, you're not living up to your social responsibility, full stop. You cannot convince me that some jackass's "freedom" to stay unvaccinated is more important than suppressing a global pandemic that's killing hundreds of thousands. I don't know what to say about mandatory vaccinations, but I will be judging the shit out of anyone who refuses, and no I don't care if they can't find work or a place to send their kids to school because of their own ignorance or selfishness. I feel exactly the same way about people who don't vaccinate their kids.
Social Responsibility? To the people that chose the vaccine and are protected? Or the unvaccinated that willingly accept that risk?
If all of the COVID vaccines were at 70% efficacy it would be a different argument as the unvaccinated would pose a danger to others that didn't accept that risk. But at 95% efficacy, the vaccinated are not at risk.
It slows herd immunity which means more deaths, more unemployment and a worse economy.
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@loki said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
All I am saying is that I understand why some people are concerned.
I get where you're coming from, but I just can't take it as a legitimate concern. It's the nature of radical social changes that the news is going to get the first drafts wrong, and everyone already knows this. More accurate information comes out daily and it's literally seconds to find. I can't sympathize with railing against the news while at the same time refusing to do a damn google search.
I also am 100% against mandatory vaccinations and even coerced vaccinations. That will ultimately lead to more people NOT getting vaccinated. I think @Jolly would agree.
If you don't get vaccinated, you're not living up to your social responsibility, full stop. You cannot convince me that some jackass's "freedom" to stay unvaccinated is more important than suppressing a global pandemic that's killing hundreds of thousands. I don't know what to say about mandatory vaccinations, but I will be judging the shit out of anyone who refuses, and no I don't care if they can't find work or a place to send their kids to school because of their own ignorance or selfishness. I feel exactly the same way about people who don't vaccinate their kids.
Social Responsibility? To the people that chose the vaccine and are protected? Or the unvaccinated that willingly accept that risk?
If all of the COVID vaccines were at 70% efficacy it would be a different argument as the unvaccinated would pose a danger to others that didn't accept that risk. But at 95% efficacy, the vaccinated are not at risk.
It slows herd immunity which means more deaths, more unemployment and a worse economy.
This.
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@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Okay, fair enough.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
Of course they did. Nobody knew anything back then. This is what happens when you couple instant news with the most radical effort in health sciences in at least a century. People report on what they can at the time, experts get it massively wrong, and the narrative changes as new information develops.
What's the alternative? Get it right all the time? Wait to do your reporting on the most important global event in our lifetimes? The news shouldn't jump the gun, but if we're going to play that game, I'd also like 100 million dollars and my own portal gun.
After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
There have also been many, many extensive articles written about precisely how these vaccines have been developed, and why the traditional vaccines are literally just as safe as the other vaccines nearly everyone in America has already had.
I know that because (1) the pandemic is a big damn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our own information literacy. Especially when it comes to a change as profound as a global pandemic.
Wow.
Really well-written, Aqua. I've read your post twice, and am quoting it just because it is so good and I hope everyone got a chance to read it. Worth reading again. Common sense in the modern era, and how to approach individual responsibility. All in one post! -
@rainman said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Okay, fair enough.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
Of course they did. Nobody knew anything back then. This is what happens when you couple instant news with the most radical effort in health sciences in at least a century. People report on what they can at the time, experts get it massively wrong, and the narrative changes as new information develops.
What's the alternative? Get it right all the time? Wait to do your reporting on the most important global event in our lifetimes? The news shouldn't jump the gun, but if we're going to play that game, I'd also like 100 million dollars and my own portal gun.
After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
There have also been many, many extensive articles written about precisely how these vaccines have been developed, and why the traditional vaccines are literally just as safe as the other vaccines nearly everyone in America has already had.
I know that because (1) the pandemic is a big damn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our own information literacy. Especially when it comes to a change as profound as a global pandemic.
Wow.
Really well-written, Aqua. I've read your post twice, and am quoting it just because it is so good and I hope everyone got a chance to read it. Worth reading again. Common sense in the modern era, and how to approach individual responsibility. All in one post!Agree. @Aqua-Letifer good post and makes a lot of sense.
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Aqua's points are well-taken, and well-explained.
But...
Here's what gets me: The "science" isn't "science" - yet. For now, and probably for the next year, it's all guesswork based on past experience which, as we've seen, is irrelevant. Making huge policy decisions driven by what is really no better than a hunch suggested by previous experience is dangerous. The scientific method is not being applied here, it's all retrospective and guesses.
We won't know shit about this for a long, long time.
Do masks work? I dunno - I see so much contradictory information. Do I wear one? Yeah (while avoiding people with cloth masks).
We Just. Don't. Know.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
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@loki said in Vaccine Rollout:
@jolly said in Vaccine Rollout:
Whatever happened to "my body, my choice"?
Doesn’t trump jobs and a functioning economy. We don’t all just march off a cliff like lemmings.
Dude, if it's good enough for a premeditated killing, it's good enough for any individual choice.
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@george-k said in Vaccine Rollout:
Making huge policy decisions driven by what is really no better than a hunch suggested by previous experience is dangerous.
I don't disagree. But are you suggesting we do nothing until we have ten-year cohort studies? I doubt you are.
At some point, we gotta make educated guesses. By all means let's debate how good they've been so far, because we've screwed up plenty. But making educated guesses is the best we can do for now.
