Vaccine Rollout
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/22/biden-vaccine-mass-sites/
"FEMA would operate up to 100 federally run mass vaccination sites under Biden plan
A draft document envisions different models for sites, with the largest capable of handling 6,000 doses a day.
..." -
Huzzah. Congrats to United for leading the initiative.
The only way to return life to normal is herd immunity. The conversation is nuts without mandatory vaccines. Now if we want to start with education, persuasion and incentives, fine.
But this is crazy to talk about some voluntary nonsense.
Finally get the Astra Zeneca vaccine out there. The UK is doing it and hasn’t found a reason to pause.
If we can’t agree on this there is little hope for anything. And so many people will suffer needlessly economically and with deaths of loved ones. How macabre.
-
@loki said in Vaccine Rollout:
Huzzah. Congrats to United for leading the initiative.
The only way to return life to normal is herd immunity. The conversation is nuts without mandatory vaccines. Now if we want to start with education, persuasion and incentives, fine.
But this is crazy to talk about some voluntary nonsense.
Finally get the Astra Zeneca vaccine out there. The UK is doing it and hasn’t found a reason to pause.
If we can’t agree on this there is little hope for anything.
Then there's little hope for anything.
I'll be getting a vaccine. I will advise and encourage others to get the vaccine. I will not support mandatory vaccinations and will actively oppose it.
As for AZ, why keep pushing for an approval on a vaccine at 70% effectiveness levels? That's flu shot level. If it was the best we could do, then okay, but it isn't. Take the time to do it right. If we need a couple more months to have everyone getting the vaccines at 95% effectiveness, then take those couple of months. I don't want millions of people running around thinking they are immune when they aren't. And at 70% that's what you would have. Hell, if 100% of the people in the US took the AZ vaccine, we wouldn't achieve Herd Immunity... Wait for your shot at Pfizer or Moderna or even better yet, the Johnson and Johnson (100% after 50 days...) and then you don't have to worry about who's vaccinated or not.
-
Maybe not mandatory vaccines, but make it "painful" (no pun intend) if you do not get one.
Want to fly on an airplane? Proof of vaccine
Register for school? Proof of vaccine
Condition of employment? Proof of vaccine
Purchase medical insurance? Proof of vaccine -
@taiwan_girl said in Vaccine Rollout:
Register for school? Proof of vaccine
Vaccinations for various diseases are already required by most (maybe even all) public school districts in the USA. Naturally there are exemptions for students who cannot take certain vaccines due to legitimate health reasons (e.g., allergy towards certain vaccine ingredients). A bit more controversial, and I suspect maybe more prone to abuse, is the notion of "religious exemption" where students/parents can claim that their organized religions prohibit vaccinations and thus be exempted from vaccination requirements.
-
Pfizer vaccine, counting doses and specialty syringes:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/22/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-461537
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/01/22/pfizer-vaccine-doses-syringes/
Story seems to be that Pfizer initially shipped vaccines labeled to have five doses per vial. Then in practice it’s discovered that there’s actually enough surplus in each vial to make an extra dose. So earlier in January Pfizer got the FDA to approve changing the labeling to indicate six doses per vial (profit motive aside, since Pfizer gets paid “per dose” rather than “per vial” in their contract with the US government, making clear to healthcare providers the true # of doses per vial in the midst of widespread shortage and high demand is not a bad thing). Then as more people try to extract that “sixth dose” out of a vial, it’s further discovered that to be effective you’ve got to use a different type of syringe that’s not shipped with the Pfizer vaccine kit, and the nation does not appear to have enough the that type of syringes. Now there is talk about invoking the Defense Production Act to boost supply of that special type of syringes.
-
@taiwan_girl said in Vaccine Rollout:
Maybe not mandatory vaccines, but make it "painful" (no pun intend) if you do not get one.
Want to fly on an airplane? Proof of vaccine
Register for school? Proof of vaccine
Condition of employment? Proof of vaccine
Purchase medical insurance? Proof of vaccineWhy? To what end? Spite? Everybody needs to be free to make their own risk/reward decision. The efficacy of these vaccines make outbreaks in the vaccinated groups virtually impossible. Outbreaks can and will continue in the non-vaccinated of course (until they develop their own limited immunity from having been infected) but that’s their risk to take that doesn’t impact you and your life.
-
@axtremus said in Vaccine Rollout:
Pfizer vaccine, counting doses and specialty syringes:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/22/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-461537
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/01/22/pfizer-vaccine-doses-syringes/
Story seems to be that Pfizer initially shipped vaccines labeled to have five doses per vial. Then in practice it’s discovered that there’s actually enough surplus in each vial to make an extra dose. So earlier in January Pfizer got the FDA to approve changing the labeling to indicate six doses per vial (profit motive aside, since Pfizer gets paid “per dose” rather than “per vial” in their contract with the US government, making clear to healthcare providers the true # of doses per vial in the midst of widespread shortage and high demand is not a bad thing). Then as more people try to extract that “sixth dose” out of a vial, it’s further discovered that to be effective you’ve got to use a different type of syringe that’s not shipped with the Pfizer vaccine kit, and the nation does not appear to have enough the that type of syringes. Now there is talk about invoking the Defense Production Act to boost supply of that special type of syringes.
So suddenly it appears that 1 out of 6 of the Pfizer vaccinations in January are compromised. Wonderful.
-
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@taiwan_girl said in Vaccine Rollout:
Maybe not mandatory vaccines, but make it "painful" (no pun intend) if you do not get one.
Want to fly on an airplane? Proof of vaccine
Register for school? Proof of vaccine
Condition of employment? Proof of vaccine
Purchase medical insurance? Proof of vaccineWhy? To what end? Spite? Everybody needs to be free to make their own risk/reward decision. The efficacy of these vaccines make outbreaks in the vaccinated groups virtually impossible. Outbreaks can and will continue in the non-vaccinated of course (until they develop their own limited immunity from having been infected) but that’s their risk to take that doesn’t impact you and your life.
Why do we require vaccines? Why do babies get vaccines the day they are born?
Why do we ban smoking in places now?
I guess I lean more towards the "good of society sometimes outweighs the good of the individual" Maybe an Asian thing. LOL
There was an interesting article a while back about in National Geographic about "herd immunity" and why that does not really work.
If everybody has the same thought - "I am not going to get vaccinated because everyone else will so I do not need to" is an idea for failure of the whole system.
-
@taiwan_girl said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@taiwan_girl said in Vaccine Rollout:
Maybe not mandatory vaccines, but make it "painful" (no pun intend) if you do not get one.
Want to fly on an airplane? Proof of vaccine
Register for school? Proof of vaccine
Condition of employment? Proof of vaccine
Purchase medical insurance? Proof of vaccineWhy? To what end? Spite? Everybody needs to be free to make their own risk/reward decision. The efficacy of these vaccines make outbreaks in the vaccinated groups virtually impossible. Outbreaks can and will continue in the non-vaccinated of course (until they develop their own limited immunity from having been infected) but that’s their risk to take that doesn’t impact you and your life.
Why do we require vaccines? Why do babies get vaccines the day they are born?
Why do we ban smoking in places now?
I guess I lean more towards the "good of society sometimes outweighs the good of the individual" Maybe an Asian thing. LOL
There was an interesting article a while back about in National Geographic about "herd immunity" and why that does not really work.
If everybody has the same thought - "I am not going to get vaccinated because everyone else will so I do not need to" is an idea for failure of the whole system.
But that doesn’t happen and it’s irrational to think it would happen.
-
Yes, just about everybody gets TB, Polio, Mumps, and who knows how many more vaccinations as children and adults, AND THEY AREN’T MANDATORY. People generally make the decision in their own and consulting with their physician. That tells you that making them mandatory is not necessary.
-
Look at the data regarding mask mandates. They haven’t worked. Masking has worked but the mandates haven’t. People needed to make the decision of their own free will and they did. Tell them they have to get an injection?
-
You are also ignoring the efficacy of these vaccines. There is minuscule risk to the vaccinated by the unvaccinated and that is their choice to accept that risk.
You want people to accept the science, but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap. You’ve had science be replaced by politics on both sides and the media. Hell, just look at the story above. 1 out of 6 Pfizer vaccinations in January were compromised because they used the wrong needle and we also discovered that 1 out of 6 doses prior to early January were wasted because nobody could figure out that 30ml divided by 5ml equals 6ml.
But you’re still going to mandate or try to coerce people to take one of the vaccines when they are reading about the incompetence of these people they are supposed to trust?
-
-
@LuFins-Dad, reading those articles, I get the impression that Pfizer’s “sixth dose” is more of an unexpected bonus vis a vis initial planning. It stands to reason that every vial is shipped with a bit of surplus to account for spillage and such, and that under normal circumstances the FDA would not have approved the relabeling to formally recognize the surplus as the “sixth dose”; this was done as an exception because COVID-19 is an emergency and the supply of vaccines is really right at the moment. The “sixth dose” is not “compromised” (as in being given to people and then found to be ineffective) but rather “wasted” with some high probability because enough of the healthcare workers administering the shots don’t have the skills to be able to consistently extract that last, “sixth” dose into the syringe if it’s not a certain specific type of syringe.
I don’t think Pfizer or the FDA was “being stupid”. They are doing the best they can dealing with a crisis and learning from it and adjusting their responses to it in real time.
-
-
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap.
LD, you couldn't be more wrong about this. This is science's finest hour. We went from discovery of a novel virus to vaccine in one year. That's absolutely insane.
And yes of course tests and studies turned out to be faulty, that's how scientific investigation works. You're telling me that you think science dropped the ball because they didn't get it right 100% of the time? That's not how it works and never has.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap.
LD, you couldn't be more wrong about this. This is science's finest hour. We went from discovery of a novel virus to vaccine in one year. That's absolutely insane.
And yes of course tests and studies turned out to be faulty, that's how scientific investigation works. You're telling me that you think science dropped the ball because they didn't get it right 100% of the time? That's not how it works and never has.
Too busy of a day to get my reply posted to this, but I will get a reply as soon as possible.
-
@loki said in Vaccine Rollout:
Life doesn’t get much easier than wearing a mask and getting a vaccine (if only available).
Explain to me how one has any empathy and can fight those two things?
If you've had the vaccine, then the unvaccinated pose virtually no threat to you. Empathy plays no part... Now, until such time as everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated, the unvaccinated should still be required to wear masks.
-
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
You’ve had science be replaced by politics on both sides and the media. Hell, just look at the story above. 1 out of 6 Pfizer vaccinations in January were compromised because they used the wrong needle and we also discovered that 1 out of 6 doses prior to early January were wasted because nobody could figure out that 30ml divided by 5ml equals 6ml.
I agree with Lufins Dad's sentiment. There are assumptions being made, as always, about what someone thinks, what some corporation (Pfizer) does or did, the usual. How often do we hear something, anything, from whatever source public or private, and find out later it was actually untrue, BS, spin, nonsense. There is a narrative, and an explanation, usually uncovered way after the fact when there is interest, but it doesn't mean anything anymore.
The reason the needle needs to be altered to a different needle, is because the angle of cut at the needle tip is too much of an angle. The nurse (or whomever) cannot get the last drop out, the syringe just sucks air. The new needle will be more painful upon insertion, but with less of an angle, the vial will be much closer to completely empty and the dosage issue of number of vaccinations from each vial will no longer be an issue.
See? It's easy. Not scientific, but wtf, most people would believe.
-
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
@aqua-letifer said in Vaccine Rollout:
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
but this hasn’t been a great year for science. We’ve had so many highly publicized tests and studies that have later been revealed to be crap.
LD, you couldn't be more wrong about this. This is science's finest hour. We went from discovery of a novel virus to vaccine in one year. That's absolutely insane.
And yes of course tests and studies turned out to be faulty, that's how scientific investigation works. You're telling me that you think science dropped the ball because they didn't get it right 100% of the time? That's not how it works and never has.
Too busy of a day to get my reply posted to this, but I will get a reply as soon as possible.
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/01/29/800813299/worried-about-catching-the-new-coronavirus-in-the-u-s-flu-is-a-bigger-threat
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/02/01/reality-check-flu-is-a-much-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus/Science and doctors told us masks were useless
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-mask-hysteria-us-trnd/index.html
https://www.c-span.org/video/?470680-3/washington-journal-dr-william-schaffner-discusses-coronavirus-pandemicScience and doctors told us Hydroxychloroquine was effective
https://www.radio.com/talk980am/articles/doctors-hydroxychloroquine-most-effective-covid-treatmentScience and doctors told us "No it isn't!"
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/september/hydroxychloroquine-no-more-effective-than-placebo-in-preventing-covid19Science and doctors told us "IS SO!"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7534595/Science and doctors told us "Nuh uh!"
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/hydroxychloroquine-does-not-benefit-adults-hospitalized-covid-19Science and doctors told us Vitamin D could be important in fighting and preventing COVID-19
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-emerging-evidence-suggests-role-for-vitamin-d-in-coronavirus-severity/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2770157Science and doctors tell us "No way!"
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4912
https://www.businessinsider.com/vitamin-d-doesnt-reduce-coronavirus-severity-study-2020-11"Yes way!" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(21)00003-6/fulltext
Science and doctors say a COVID-19 vaccine will take years to develop - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/30/opinion/coronavirus-covid-vaccine.html
This is just a small bit of the extraordinary back and forth the general public has been hearing about the science of the last year. After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
Me/rry/Christmas
-
@lufins-dad said in Vaccine Rollout:
Let me be clear, I am speaking to the perception and marketing of science and not the actual scientific method itself.
Okay, fair enough.
Science and doctors told us the flu was a bigger threat.
Of course they did. Nobody knew anything back then. This is what happens when you couple instant news with the most radical effort in health sciences in at least a century. People report on what they can at the time, experts get it massively wrong, and the narrative changes as new information develops.
What's the alternative? Get it right all the time? Wait to do your reporting on the most important global event in our lifetimes? The news shouldn't jump the gun, but if we're going to play that game, I'd also like 100 million dollars and my own portal gun.
After hearing that it could take years to develop a vaccine, can you understand why some people might find it worrisome rather than miraculous that they had 2 out within 9 months? Especially after all of the contradictions in testing and results all year?
There have also been many, many extensive articles written about precisely how these vaccines have been developed, and why the traditional vaccines are literally just as safe as the other vaccines nearly everyone in America has already had.
I know that because (1) the pandemic is a big damn deal, (2) I was very concerned about the vaccines and had some serious fears about them, so (3) I proactively researched them instead of getting my virology degree at the University of Facebook Online. That's what my obligation was as a person who lives in this decade.
This isn't the 1980s. We have a massive surplus of information out there. In fact it's too much. Since online news, YouTube and Facebook have become a Thing, it's become our job to cultivate our own information literacy. Especially when it comes to a change as profound as a global pandemic.
