More masks....
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"Did not reduce by more than 50%" is rather odd wording. Why didn't they
say 'reduced by between 23% and 46%' which I think is what they ended up saying?IOW, masks probably reduce infection, but there's a shit ton of other factors and it's actually really hard to measure and bloody complicated.
Proud supporter of Plan 2525. Everything you think, do and say will be in the pill you took today.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in More masks....:
bloody complicated.
That, basically, is my take.
We just don't know, and I'll err on the side of caution.
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It’s always something.
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@jon-nyc said in More masks....:
This is really talking about being the guy with the mask in a community where mask usage is uncommon.
No, they specifically pointed out that mask usage in this community is unusually high.
My take? Masks help a little. Not nearly as much as Social Distancing and hand washing, but some small amount. Plus, masks are easier to mandate and enforce than social distancing and handwashing.
The problem is that way too many are looking at masks as the Great White Hope. They aren’t. They make some slight difference, but are possibly doing more harm than good because people aren’t social distancing and washing because they think the masks are protecting them...
There’s a reason why this shit’s spiking in areas with mask mandates just as much as those that don’t... 85% of those testing positive are mask wearers....
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I think it also depends on the type of mask. We've gone to DEFCON 2 which for me means a double mask - a surgiclal mask plus N95 mask over it when entering a store. I also wear latex gloves when entering the store which are removed immediately after leaving. Hands are washed upon entering the house. We have as much delivered as possible but still need to visit the store a couple of times a week.
I see a lot of people wearing masks as chin guards - and some masks are just cloth which is really imaginary protection.
I run in the forest preserve and wear a cloth covering there - which I understand is imaginary but I also stay 10 or more feet away from people and the 30 mph wind helps to ensure minimal exposure.
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My wife makes me wear a mask in bed. For some reason it's got this Patrick Dempsey face stenciled on it. Better safe than sorry, I guess, and he's a doctor and everything.
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Hi - been a long time, since I've checked this forum.
I didn't read the entire article, but what is irritating is when employees of stores we shop at, as well as customers, wear a bandana, that they loosely just tie on, or a gaiter. Neither a bandana or gaiter help as well as a regular "single use" mask. I understand that grocery stores and other sites are pushing sales of gaiters, which people rarely wore in the past!
We are in the PURPLE here in California. -
@Doctor-Phibes said in More masks....:
"Did not reduce by more than 50%" is rather odd wording. Why didn't they
say 'reduced by between 23% and 46%' which I think is what they ended up saying?IOW, masks probably reduce infection, but there's a shit ton of other factors and it's actually really hard to measure and bloody complicated.
Yes, the words are confusing.
They said
Yet, the findings were inconclusive and cannot definitively exclude a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection of mask wearers in such a setting.
I think that actually means, wearing masks has a range of effects from:
a 46% reduction in infections to
a 23% increase in infectionsI think it says a mask can increase infections
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@LuFins-Dad said in More masks....:
@jon-nyc said in More masks....:
This is really talking about being the guy with the mask in a community where mask usage is uncommon.
No, they specifically pointed out that mask usage in this community is unusually high.
The first sentence of George’s ‘long discussion’
n this community-based, randomized controlled trial conducted in a setting where mask wearing was uncommon
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"... mask-wearing levels were reportedly high (88.7%) among people who did not catch the virus."
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@ILM said in More masks....:
Hi - been a long time, since I've checked this forum.
I didn't read the entire article, but what is irritating is when employees of stores we shop at, as well as customers, wear a bandana, that they loosely just tie on, or a gaiter. Neither a bandana or gaiter help as well as a regular "single use" mask. I understand that grocery stores and other sites are pushing sales of gaiters, which people rarely wore in the past!
We are in the PURPLE here in California.Don't be a stranger. Sometimes, we're interesting.
Except for Phibes, of course...
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@jon-nyc said in More masks....:
@LuFins-Dad said in More masks....:
@jon-nyc said in More masks....:
This is really talking about being the guy with the mask in a community where mask usage is uncommon.
No, they specifically pointed out that mask usage in this community is unusually high.
The first sentence of George’s ‘long discussion’
n this community-based, randomized controlled trial conducted in a setting where mask wearing was uncommon
I misread that the other way. My fault for skimming.
It still doesn’t change the general point of my post. Mask effectiveness is being blown way out of proportion. If mask wearing was that effective in controlling this crap, it would have been the first recommendation made by the CDC, not the last made months later...And even then slowly and with a bunch of caveats. In order of importance Social Distancing and hygiene are far more important. Unfortunately, everybody jumps on to the mask issue because it’s something visible and use it as a point of blame because we have to point the finger somewhere...
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I can’t believe all those people at the Mayo Clinic didn’t wear masks... They ought to be ashamed! :eyeroll:
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I've read that ordinary cloth 'hang round your ears' masks are maybe only maximkum 20% effective, while well-fitted N95/FPP2 worn correctly and tightly with elastic around the back of your head, actually covering nose and mouth so you breath through the material maybe up to 70% effective.
Considering both grandfathers endured eight hours a day six days a week in a dangerous, dirty job bent double mining coal, I think I can just about manage to stay indoors, keep my distance outside, and wear a mask.
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@LuFins-Dad I agree that mask wearing is just one part of an overall strategy. If none of the strategy parts are followed (or followed at less than 100% )the whole thing cannot work very well possibly.
Mask wearing
Good hygiene
social distancing
Detailed contact tracing
Quarantine -
Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe
Abstract
Masking was the single most common non-pharmaceutical intervention in the course of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Most countries have implemented recommendations or mandates regarding the use of masks in public spaces. The aim of this short study was to analyse the correlation between mask usage against morbidity and mortality rates in the 2020-2021 winter in Europe. Data from 35 European countries on morbidity, mortality, and mask usage during a six-month period were analysed and crossed. Mask usage was more homogeneous in Eastern Europe than in Western European countries. Spearman's correlation coefficients between mask usage and COVID-19 outcomes were either null or positive, depending on the subgroup of countries and type of outcome (cases or deaths). Positive correlations were stronger in Western than in Eastern European countries. These findings indicate that countries with high levels of mask compliance did not perform better than those with low mask usage.....Conclusions
While no cause-effect conclusions could be inferred from this observational analysis, the lack of negative correlations between mask usage and COVID-19 cases and deaths suggest that the widespread use of masks at a time when an effective intervention was most needed, i.e., during the strong 2020-2021 autumn-winter peak, was not able to reduce COVID-19 transmission. Moreover, the moderate positive correlation between mask usage and deaths in Western Europe also suggests that the universal use of masks may have had harmful unintended consequences.Is "Cureus" a real publication? The (single) author is in Brazil.
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It has an article on Ivermectin use too:
Conclusion: In this large PSM study, regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.
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I was Cureus
Cureus, also known as the Cureus Journal of Medical Science, is an open access general medical journal and is among the growing number of journals using prepublication and post publication peer review. It is also the first academic journal which provides authors with step-by-step templates for them to use to write their papers.[1] The journal's founders are John R. Adler (Stanford University), who serves as one of two editors-in-chief, and Alexander Muacevic (University of Munich) who serves as the second editor-in-chief.[2]
History and publication process
Cureus was originally started as PeerEMed in 2009, and was re-launched under its current name in December 2012.[1] Under its system, after an article is published, anyone can review it, but the reviews of experts will be given a higher score.[3] Its peer-review process involves asking experts to review a given article in a few days, which results in its peer reviews taking much less time than those of most other journals do.[3] Adler told Retraction Watch in 2015 that "Yes Cureus has an unusually fast review process, which is an important part of the journal’s philosophy. We believe that post publication peer review, a focus of our journal through commenting and our unique SIQ process, is potentially a more powerful way to discern truth."[4]) -
We've gone around and around on masks, as has the government.
I've yet to see a well-done study that shows they're effective, in and of themselves.
As @Doctor-Phibes commented, those who are wearing masks are probably more likely to engage in other risk-reducing behaviors, and that's probably true.
It would be nice if just mask-compliance could be isolated and examined.
