Can we at least end one narrative?
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Mik said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
What I’m very much missing in this whole discussion, is an effort to understand why it has come this far. I get the anger towards SJW’s, the cancel culture, etc. But how did those ideas manage to get so much traction? Why do they feel justified to have these ideas?
Because they're highly effective. The worst thing to be called in American life is a racist. Weaponizing language like that makes the target want to do anything to make amends because they really don't want that label on them. And it's such a grave condemnation that no one had ever dared using it as a leveraging tactic before. It was inconceivable that someone would make such an accusation simply to get their way.
Companies and individuals will bend over backwards to make such an allegation go away. So if you don't care about eroding civility and just want to get what you want, it's a great tactic. The left has learned this.
If you're truly interested in learning the impetus of this trend, it's found in post-modernism and assholes like Foucault. He teaches that everything is a power struggle anyway, so you're not doing anything wrong by leveraging whatever you can. (Much more importantly, it's what everyone who has more than you has done to become successful, so if you want yours, you better learn how to win at power struggles.)
I'm serious. Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze and their followers established this shit as a legitimate philosophical position in the universities. From there it's spread into political activism and finally to everyday people who don't know any better.
Post-modernism is ground zero for these ideas. I spent two years reading this shit for my Master's. Past them, there's nowhere further up the chain to go. They'll answer all your "where does this come from" questions.
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@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
I know that's what you were talking about. I expanded on the topic since you barged in on the discussion with all guns blazing, quite determined to claim the moral high ground. That made my "expansion" and my question very relevant, whether you like it or not. And I tried to give it a rest, but since you insist, let me ask you again and this time grant you your wish to limit this to late-term abortions: do you equally fiercely battle those who think late-term abortion should be prohibited no matter what? These people feel it's perfectly ok to let babies be born that suffer from a horribly painful terminal illness. What horrible human beings! So do you?
I suspect you'll deflect again, based on some BS reason.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Mik said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
What I’m very much missing in this whole discussion, is an effort to understand why it has come this far. I get the anger towards SJW’s, the cancel culture, etc. But how did those ideas manage to get so much traction? Why do they feel justified to have these ideas?
Because they're highly effective. The worst thing to be called in American life is a racist. Weaponizing language like that makes the target want to do anything to make amends because they really don't want that label on them. And it's such a grave condemnation that no one had ever dared using it as a leveraging tactic before. It was inconceivable that someone would make such an accusation simply to get their way.
Companies and individuals will bend over backwards to make such an allegation go away. So if you don't care about eroding civility and just want to get what you want, it's a great tactic. The left has learned this.
If you're truly interested in learning the impetus of this trend, it's found in post-modernism and assholes like Foucault. He teaches that everything is a power struggle anyway, so you're not doing anything wrong by leveraging whatever you can. (Much more importantly, it's what everyone who has more than you has done to become successful, so if you want yours, you better learn how to win at power struggles.)
I'm serious. Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze and their followers established this shit as a legitimate philosophical position in the universities. From there it's spread into political activism and finally to everyday people who don't know any better.
Post-modernism is ground zero for these ideas. I spent two years reading this shit for my Master's. Past them, there's nowhere further up the chain to go. They'll answer all your "where does this come from" questions.
I'm aware of those ideas, which to some extent we see here as well. That language is weaponized in that way is obviously not acceptable.
What I'm trying to say is not a denial that this is happening. And yes, it's problematic. We see those ideas here as well, and I'll happily admit that I sometimes hold back on sharing my opinion in public, because I'm pretty sure it will make reason go out the door pretty quickly. But at least for now, those instances are limited to when I'm among people either far left or far right when it comes to their convictions. In the political center, it remains pretty easy to roam free with your opinions, whether they are center-left or center-right. We do see the pendulum swing somewhat far in either direction at times, but I hope it stays limited enough. But whereas I'm not at all denying that these ideas exist (nor denying that it's those ideas that are causing problems right now), I'm wondering in general why it is that an idea like that manages to proliferate to such a problematic extent in the US.
On that, there's one thing I tend to disagree with you on here, which is the very thing I've been trying to illustrate. My bad I guess, for choosing abortion as the example so that it probably got lost completely in the heat (what the hell was I thinking
). What I disagree with you on, without wanting to minimize the impact it has despite that or saying that your anger is in any way misplaced, is that each and every one of those people who uses language in that way, does it with an intentional disregard for public erosion, solely to work their way up in a company in a dishonest way (or any other objective they think they could achieve with it). Some of them no doubt do, such individuals have always existed. But I believe that for a significant part of this group it is simply emotion, a highly misplaced and distorted emotion (although very anecdotal, Ben Affleck's meltdown against Sam Harris that can easily be found on YouTube is a perfect example; sure, the man's an actor, but to me his response was all emotion and no reason; it didn't seem to occur to him anymore to stop and think, and hear the other guy out and try to listen to his perspective; he saw a red flag and attacked head-on). And they don't even realize that anymore, and neither do they realize the impact it has on others.So bottom line: whereas I'm sure there are quite a lot of people who intentionally use these ideas for personal profit without giving a damn about the consequences, I'm not convinced this applies to all who use language in that way (for reasons I've repeatedly tried to outline). I could very well be wrong, partly or completely, and am not claiming to have all the wisdom or hold the absolute truth here. I'm mainly hoping that I am not (completely) wrong, and that if I am not (completely) wrong, that people on the other side will find it in them to identify that and try to bring reason back into this topic. However it may be, good luck fighting it. It will be difficult either way.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
I know that's what you were talking about. I expanded on the topic since you barged in on the discussion with all guns blazing, quite determined to claim the moral high ground. That made my "expansion" and my question very relevant, whether you like it or not. And I tried to give it a rest, but since you insist, let me ask you again and this time grant you your wish to limit this to late-term abortions: do you equally fiercely battle those who think late-term abortion should be prohibited no matter what? These people feel it's perfectly ok to let babies be born that suffer from a horribly painful terminal illness. What horrible human beings! So do you?
I suspect you'll deflect again, based on some BS reason.
How about I do this - how about I correct your false notion that late term abortions are done because of some medical problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/
You will find that medical research, after an over 20 year long study, determined that
"However, while the occasional politician or news reporter will still indicate that late-term abortions are most often performed in the case of “severe fetal anomalies” or to “save the woman’s life,” the trajectory of the peer-reviewed research literature has been obvious for decades: most late-term abortions are elective, done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, and for the same reasons given by women experiencing first trimester abortions. The Guttmacher Institute has provided a number of reports over 2 decades which have identified the reasons why women choose abortion, and they have consistently reported that childbearing would interfere with their education, work, and ability to care for existing dependents; would be a financial burden; and would disrupt partner relationships.3 "
So I repeat: it is dumbasses like you, who can't stick to the issue, who talk out of their ass throwing out false "facts" that need to shut the hell up. Contrary to your made up little fluffy bunny bull shit, the reality is that women are having their fully developed, full term, perfectly healthy baby's throats cut, their heads pulled off, their arms and legs pulled off, and their vital organs harvested and sold because after carrying the kid for nine months, they suddenly decide having to raise the kid might inconvenience them.
You are full of shit.
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@Klaus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Question for Larry and Jolly:
Do you consider late term abortions worse than abortions within the first 10 weeks? If so, why?
Yes. The argument for Roe vs Wade was that abortion was needed to be made legal to allow a window for medical reasons, rape, and least importantly, an "oopsy". It was limited to first trimester, and only abortions to save the life of the mother or because of medical issues regarding the fetus to be allowed after that. Over time, the left pushed little by little until we now see fully developed, perfectly healthy, full term babies being halfway out of the birth canal having their heads ripped off, murdered simply because the mother decided that having to raise the kid might be an inconvenience.
These babies can feel pain, are fully developed humans, not some little glob of cells. It is pure, out and out murder.
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@Klaus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Question for Larry and Jolly:
Do you consider late term abortions worse than abortions within the first 10 weeks? If so, why?
Life is life, death is death. On a religious level, I see no difference.
On a medical level, a 10-week old baby cannot survive outside of the womb. On that level, it is a huge difference. But there is a healthy toddler running around this morning, who was born at 23 weeks.
Therefore, on a religious level, there should be no legal abortions. Life is life. Thou shalt not murder. On a practical level, abortions should be evaluated on the chance of survival. If medical science is able to save an extreme preemie, there's your cut-off week. At this point, the line should be drawn at 23 weeks.
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I don't think there should be abortions outside the first trimester unless something is seriously wrong with the fetus, and/or the mother's life is in danger, or there's a risk of serious damage to the mother.
I don't really understand what's so controversial about this view.
Proud supporter of Plan 2525. Everything you think, do and say will be in the pill you took today.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I don't think there should be abortions outside the first trimester unless something is seriously wrong with the fetus, and/or the mother's life is in danger, or there's a risk of serious damage to the mother.
I don't really understand what's so controversial about this view.
We finally agree on something! Lol
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I know I've said this before, but one of the problems with the abortion debate in the US is the apparent inability of those on either side to accept compromise, and the very extreme and emotive tactics and language used by both.
Not to sound all namby-pamby, but I also think that it would be better to tone down some of the language used since I'm sure some people who post here, or who discuss it in general, have been involved with abortions, or have loved ones who have, and in many cases it must have been a very difficult decision. Just to be clear, I'm not one of them.
Proud supporter of Plan 2525. Everything you think, do and say will be in the pill you took today.
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@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Klaus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Question for Larry and Jolly:
Do you consider late term abortions worse than abortions within the first 10 weeks? If so, why?
Yes. The argument for Roe vs Wade was that abortion was needed to be made legal to allow a window for medical reasons, rape, and least importantly, an "oopsy". It was limited to first trimester, and only abortions to save the life of the mother or because of medical issues regarding the fetus to be allowed after that. Over time, the left pushed little by little until we now see fully developed, perfectly healthy, full term babies being halfway out of the birth canal having their heads ripped off, murdered simply because the mother decided that having to raise the kid might be an inconvenience.
These babies can feel pain, are fully developed humans, not some little glob of cells. It is pure, out and out murder.
I mostly agree with that, actually. Abortions are never good, but if so, they should be done within the first trimester. Only in very extreme circumstances should later abortions be allowed (such as a very serious risk of loosing the mother).
But my impression is that the number of people for whom late abortions are OK is very small.
Over here, we've had a legal path to abortions within the first trimester for more than 30 years already (with some constraints, such as a mandatory counseling on alternatives), and no abortions except for very specific medical reasons after that. After that law was passed, the abortion debate has ceased to exist. It is a complete non-issue in public debate.
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@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
I know that's what you were talking about. I expanded on the topic since you barged in on the discussion with all guns blazing, quite determined to claim the moral high ground. That made my "expansion" and my question very relevant, whether you like it or not. And I tried to give it a rest, but since you insist, let me ask you again and this time grant you your wish to limit this to late-term abortions: do you equally fiercely battle those who think late-term abortion should be prohibited no matter what? These people feel it's perfectly ok to let babies be born that suffer from a horribly painful terminal illness. What horrible human beings! So do you?
I suspect you'll deflect again, based on some BS reason.
How about I do this - how about I correct your false notion that late term abortions are done because of some medical problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/
You will find that medical research, after an over 20 year long study, determined that
"However, while the occasional politician or news reporter will still indicate that late-term abortions are most often performed in the case of “severe fetal anomalies” or to “save the woman’s life,” the trajectory of the peer-reviewed research literature has been obvious for decades: most late-term abortions are elective, done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, and for the same reasons given by women experiencing first trimester abortions. The Guttmacher Institute has provided a number of reports over 2 decades which have identified the reasons why women choose abortion, and they have consistently reported that childbearing would interfere with their education, work, and ability to care for existing dependents; would be a financial burden; and would disrupt partner relationships.3 "
So I repeat: it is dumbasses like you, who can't stick to the issue, who talk out of their ass throwing out false "facts" that need to shut the hell up. Contrary to your made up little fluffy bunny bull shit, the reality is that women are having their fully developed, full term, perfectly healthy baby's throats cut, their heads pulled off, their arms and legs pulled off, and their vital organs harvested and sold because after carrying the kid for nine months, they suddenly decide having to raise the kid might inconvenience them.
You are full of shit.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t make any claim whatsoever about the occurrence of elective late-term abortions in areas where they are allowed. I said I was convinced that the majority would not let it come that far, not that it doesn’t happen.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I know I've said this before, but one of the problems with the abortion debate in the US is the apparent inability of those on either side to accept compromise, and the very extreme and emotive tactics and language used by both.
Lol! Yeah sorry, I can get a teeny tiny bit repetitive at times. Not my best quality I must admit. Great summary though!
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
I know that's what you were talking about. I expanded on the topic since you barged in on the discussion with all guns blazing, quite determined to claim the moral high ground. That made my "expansion" and my question very relevant, whether you like it or not. And I tried to give it a rest, but since you insist, let me ask you again and this time grant you your wish to limit this to late-term abortions: do you equally fiercely battle those who think late-term abortion should be prohibited no matter what? These people feel it's perfectly ok to let babies be born that suffer from a horribly painful terminal illness. What horrible human beings! So do you?
I suspect you'll deflect again, based on some BS reason.
How about I do this - how about I correct your false notion that late term abortions are done because of some medical problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/
You will find that medical research, after an over 20 year long study, determined that
"However, while the occasional politician or news reporter will still indicate that late-term abortions are most often performed in the case of “severe fetal anomalies” or to “save the woman’s life,” the trajectory of the peer-reviewed research literature has been obvious for decades: most late-term abortions are elective, done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, and for the same reasons given by women experiencing first trimester abortions. The Guttmacher Institute has provided a number of reports over 2 decades which have identified the reasons why women choose abortion, and they have consistently reported that childbearing would interfere with their education, work, and ability to care for existing dependents; would be a financial burden; and would disrupt partner relationships.3 "
So I repeat: it is dumbasses like you, who can't stick to the issue, who talk out of their ass throwing out false "facts" that need to shut the hell up. Contrary to your made up little fluffy bunny bull shit, the reality is that women are having their fully developed, full term, perfectly healthy baby's throats cut, their heads pulled off, their arms and legs pulled off, and their vital organs harvested and sold because after carrying the kid for nine months, they suddenly decide having to raise the kid might inconvenience them.
You are full of shit.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t make any claim whatsoever about the occurrence of elective late-term abortions in areas where they are allowed. I said I was convinced that the majority would not let it come that far, not that it doesn’t happen.
You don't have a fucking clue WHAT you've said at this point.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
On that, there's one thing I tend to disagree with you on here, which is the very thing I've been trying to illustrate. My bad I guess, for choosing abortion as the example so that it probably got lost completely in the heat (what the hell was I thinking ). What I disagree with you on, without wanting to minimize the impact it has despite that or saying that your anger is in any way misplaced, is that each and every one of those people who uses language in that way, does it with an intentional disregard for public erosion, solely to work their way up in a company in a dishonest way (or any other objective they think they could achieve with it).
I actually don't disagree with you about that. But you have to look at the full thread: where the ideas originated from, and what happens after they permeate into society. How they're adopted.
Monkey See, Monkey Do. My co-worker from several years ago is a perfect example of this. She wasn't intentionally disregarding civility or mutual respect for a colleague. She just saw other people act that way enough that it seemed normal for her to try it out herself. It wasn't malicious, it was just an option to get what you want, like changing your car insurance.
But why did she find it so acceptable to do so? Surely you don't just throw around sexism charges just to get what you want? Sure you do, after enough people came before her to set the example for her.
The originators, the folks on the far left who started pushing this, are the ones who see everything in terms of power struggles and that the ends justify any means. The adopters are just parroting what they see their peers doing. If you have neo-liberal views, then this is how you express yourself. They become useful idiots in effect.
Another note: the right is different in this regard. The originators of militant right-wing ideology have different intentions. With abortion, for example, the folks picketing outside abortion clinics honestly hear "abortion" and imagine children getting murdered. They don't imagine anything else. So they're coming from a place of crimes against humanity.
Not so with the left's originators. They have made a cold, calculated decision to weaponize their language. For them, it's "whatever works to get what I want." It's how Foucault and Derrida taught the originators to act, and it's what's parroted by the left's followers; the vibe of the message stays the same even though the parroters don't know what they're doing. But the motivations behind the militant left's originators and those on the right are completely different and have nothing to do with politics.
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@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
I don’t prefer anything in particular. But the single sentence response you chose to use when you just entered the discussion here, made your intentions quite clear.
You know, it takes an equal level of effort for me to understand the motivations of the other extreme, namely that abortion should be prohibited no matter what, even if it’s for medical reasons. That is not at all a viewpoint that prevents babies from being in pain. Is that a viewpoint that you combat just as fiercely?
I meant for my intentions to be clear. We weren't talking about early abortions, we weren't talking about medically necessary abortions. We were talking about late term abortions. I made that equally clear. You are the one who expanded it to include every possible instance of abortion, not me. And this is exactly what happens every single time someone tries to justify abortion. Then you admit you were aware that I was talking about late term abortion when you referred to it as an "extreme" with no abortion at any cost being the other extreme.
No, you didn't like hearing late term abortion described. It made you uncomfortable. And you want me to describe it in fluffy bunny terms so that no one has to deal with the fact that it is pure, out and out murder. You want to talk about it in fluffy bunny terms so that it can be discussed like it was just another political issue with two sides. Not gonna happen. Late term abortion is where a female carries a usually perfectly healthy baby to full term, a baby that for months has been sucking its thumb, listening to its mother's voice, sleeping, being awake, laughing, crying... and on its way out of the birth canal being grabbed hold of, its throat slit to bleed it out, its head pulled off, its arms and legs pulled off, and then thrown into the trash like a tumor. Many say its.vital organs are harvested and sold.
Justify that.
Please pay attention. I'm not justifying it, I said I was against it with the exception of when it's for medical reasons, remember? If you feel the need to describe here the most drastic late-term abortion procedure in its most graphic detail, have at it! As you just did... Do I "like" hearing it described? No, I obviously don't like hearing it described. I hate it, I hate the procedure itself and the fact that it is sometimes necessary to use it. But no, I have no preference whatsoever on how you decide to describe anything. If that's how you feel you should address this, then go ahead. In my opinion, it's the surefire thing to make it worse though.
Yes, it should be a moral issue, but it's my point exactly that this has become way too political and way too polarized in your country. Us vs them, action-reaction, extremes get worse and legislation has become a caricature of what it could have had the extreme voices present on both sides not been so loud.
I already said it's very different where I live. We've come to a compromise that in my mind is very reasonable and one I feel confident to defend. We certainly differ from you guys culturally. But inherently and on average, I simply don't believe we are very different (if at all) in terms of our capacity to recognize what is morally acceptable and what not. Therefore, I'm convinced that if reason would return to this debate (and other debates, after all, this was an example), that the majority of those who some like to call "baby-killers" for voting for Biden, will agree to a reasonable compromise. I do not believe at all that the majority of them actually believes that allowing late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is really all that reasonable. I'm also convinced that the majority of them would never let it come to a late-term abortion, were they to seek an abortion. That is why I think calling them "baby-killers" is neither right, nor helpful.
I'm not the one who needs to pay attention, you are. I spoke specifically about late term abortion. You chose to take me to task over it by talking about early abortions, and everything in between. You want reason to return to the abortion debate, stick to the topic instead of trying to bury it in bull shit. You navel gaze your way into scenarios that simply do not exist. So frankly I don't give a damn what you think because it is exactly your way of discussing this issue that keeps it from being addressed.
I know that's what you were talking about. I expanded on the topic since you barged in on the discussion with all guns blazing, quite determined to claim the moral high ground. That made my "expansion" and my question very relevant, whether you like it or not. And I tried to give it a rest, but since you insist, let me ask you again and this time grant you your wish to limit this to late-term abortions: do you equally fiercely battle those who think late-term abortion should be prohibited no matter what? These people feel it's perfectly ok to let babies be born that suffer from a horribly painful terminal illness. What horrible human beings! So do you?
I suspect you'll deflect again, based on some BS reason.
How about I do this - how about I correct your false notion that late term abortions are done because of some medical problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457018/
You will find that medical research, after an over 20 year long study, determined that
"However, while the occasional politician or news reporter will still indicate that late-term abortions are most often performed in the case of “severe fetal anomalies” or to “save the woman’s life,” the trajectory of the peer-reviewed research literature has been obvious for decades: most late-term abortions are elective, done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, and for the same reasons given by women experiencing first trimester abortions. The Guttmacher Institute has provided a number of reports over 2 decades which have identified the reasons why women choose abortion, and they have consistently reported that childbearing would interfere with their education, work, and ability to care for existing dependents; would be a financial burden; and would disrupt partner relationships.3 "
So I repeat: it is dumbasses like you, who can't stick to the issue, who talk out of their ass throwing out false "facts" that need to shut the hell up. Contrary to your made up little fluffy bunny bull shit, the reality is that women are having their fully developed, full term, perfectly healthy baby's throats cut, their heads pulled off, their arms and legs pulled off, and their vital organs harvested and sold because after carrying the kid for nine months, they suddenly decide having to raise the kid might inconvenience them.
You are full of shit.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t make any claim whatsoever about the occurrence of elective late-term abortions in areas where they are allowed. I said I was convinced that the majority would not let it come that far, not that it doesn’t happen.
You don't have a fucking clue WHAT you've said at this point.
I know perfectly well what I said. Quite honestly, I don’t understand why you keep being so angry. Although we obviously disagree on how we’d go about to achieve it, we are pretty much aligned on what a reasonable legislation on abortion looks like.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
On that, there's one thing I tend to disagree with you on here, which is the very thing I've been trying to illustrate. My bad I guess, for choosing abortion as the example so that it probably got lost completely in the heat (what the hell was I thinking ). What I disagree with you on, without wanting to minimize the impact it has despite that or saying that your anger is in any way misplaced, is that each and every one of those people who uses language in that way, does it with an intentional disregard for public erosion, solely to work their way up in a company in a dishonest way (or any other objective they think they could achieve with it).
I actually don't disagree with you about that. But you have to look at the full thread: where the ideas originated from, and what happens after they permeate into society. How they're adopted.
Monkey See, Monkey Do. My co-worker from several years ago is a perfect example of this. She wasn't intentionally disregarding civility or mutual respect for a colleague. She just saw other people act that way enough that it seemed normal for her to try it out herself. It wasn't malicious, it was just an option to get what you want, like changing your car insurance.
But why did she find it so acceptable to do so? Surely you don't just throw around sexism charges just to get what you want? Sure you do, after enough people came before her to set the example for her.
The originators, the folks on the far left who started pushing this, are the ones who see everything in terms of power struggles and that the ends justify any means. The adopters are just parroting what they see their peers doing. If you have neo-liberal views, then this is how you express yourself. They become useful idiots in effect.
Another note: the right is different in this regard. The originators of militant right-wing ideology have different intentions. With abortion, for example, the folks picketing outside abortion clinics honestly hear "abortion" and imagine children getting murdered. They don't imagine anything else. So they're coming from a place of crimes against humanity.
Not so with the left's originators. They have made a cold, calculated decision to weaponize their language. For them, it's "whatever works to get what I want." It's how Foucault and Derrida taught the originators to act, and it's what's parroted by the left's followers; the vibe of the message stays the same even though the parroters don't know what they're doing. But the motivations behind the militant left's originators and those on the right are completely different and have nothing to do with politics.
Yes, there’s nothing there I disagree with. I’m not even sure I would call those picketing outside abortion clinics to be deliberate originators of an ideology, although that may be the intention of some of them. With the exception of the use of violence, I don’t see anything inherently wrong with protests against abortion. The parallel that I’m drawing here, is the strength of the underlying emotions and the accompanying tendency to condemn others far too quickly. At bottom, this is an emotional response and the disregard for the other side’s perspective is (largely) undeliberate. And to me, that seems to be what the left’s originators are exploiting. They know these emotions are prevalent enough so that the accusations that they are weaponising, however baseless they may be, have a pretty good chance to not only go unchallenged, but that they will be confirmed. And from then on, it only proliferates further until the group of the accused has had enough of it.
So those who participate in protests against abortion imagine children getting murdered, and in and of itself I don’t see a problem with that, and there’s nothing there that looks like it’s cold and calculated. What does the other side imagine when abortion rights are threatened to become more restricted? They imagine it’s simply a part of the ongoing war on women and that it is only the start of the complete destruction of their reproductive rights. Without having to go very far back in time, they see the attempts at undermining access to contraception; they hear how women who come up for the most basic form of birth control are called “slut” and “prostitute” on national television; they hear republican men making all kinds of odd and unsubstantiated claims about rape, etc. I don’t see anything cold and calculated there either. I see legitimate concerns, and legitimate emotions. But emotions strong enough to be exploited by those who want it. In this case to weaponise the term “sexism”, applying it whenever they see it fit to further their agenda, just because it works. But the fact that these emotions are being exploited in unacceptable ways, doesn’t mean the emotions themselves are not real or unjustified. They have just as much a cause that deserves to be examined.
The problems you describe are things we don’t see here to such a problematic extent. If you’re going to try to work your way up the professional food chain here by discrediting others by calling them racist, you better have a very good explanation why or it is going to blow up in your face. If you’re going to accuse someone of being a sexist for talking in a deep voice, your manager is going to talk to you in private to tell you that does not make much sense.
Although over here the word racist is also often used all too eagerly (also by people who don’t seem to know its exact meaning), it’s mainly used by people confined in the radical left party and is mainly aimed at those confined in the radical right party. They exist, but they don’t get much attention. And therefore, within the boundaries of center-left to center-right, that stuff just doesn’t fly.
