Can we at least end one narrative?
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@Aqua-Letifer I don’t know in what other ways you apparently require me to say this, but I will repeat again that I’m not trying to minimise or deny any of what you are saying. And many on this board who I believe are more left leaning at the very least (though I could be wrong about their political ideas), back you on this as well. That’s good, no?
So yes, there’s little doubt in my mind that these issues on the left (perhaps to some extent in combination with the Hillary Clinton-factor), are the main driver of Trump’s rise and his continued support after 4 years as evidenced by the many votes he still got. And right at this moment in time, that’s definitely on the democrats (or at least a great deal of them).
Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.
Well, any kind of extremity is bad of course, and the right are definitely learning from their adversaries and picking up some of their bad habits. Things like victimhood culture, exacerbating controversies, etc.
But it's a matter of priorities and a comparative scale of threat. You're talking about fire hazards in the conservative household. Fair enough, fire hazards are bad and should be eliminated. But our neighbors to the left already have a full-on structure fire going, and worse, no one is calling the fire department.
I honestly care very little about the missteps of conservatives for the time being because conservatives have not been nearly as effective in creating societal distress. Far more improvement would be made putting the liberal fires out rather than worrying about conservatives.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists.
I'm not a liberal but I for one have never thought of the majority of Trump voters as being racists. Racism is not the problem with Trump.
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@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Nunatax, do you think it's ok to deliver a baby, and cut it's throat while it's legs are still coming out of its mother?
I am aware of this procedure that you so happily describe in a way to achieve a maximum shock effect. Yeah, how can anyone possibly disagree with you now that you made clear sleepy Joe is nothing more than an awful, horrible person! Come on, the guy believes it's ok to kill babies! Yeah, every single one of those 74 million+ voters who voted for him should be ashamed of themselves! They are deplorable! (See what you are doing there?)
To answer your question: in any normal circumstance (healthy baby, no danger to the mother's life) I'm not ok with a late term abortion. To put it differently: if you are asking for an abortion for the simple reason of not wanting a baby but you're at the point where that specific procedure is required, then in my opinion you have waited too long. That's not a position that is hard to have or defend where I live. When abortion was legalized in my country, it was a big thing and so it should. A topic like that is not one to take lightly. But for as long as I can remember, the window to have an abortion without any medical reason, is limited in time. To me that is reasonable and it is an achievable compromise if you take the time to understand everyone's viewpoint. We do also have people vocal about wanting to extend the abortion deadline as well as others wanting more limitations. That makes the news on occasion, but it doesn't seem to divide our population, and there's no problem here with violence on abortion clinics. If I'm not mistaken, in the US such violence over the years has included (attempted) murder, arson, bombing ...
But anyway, when hearing stories of large groups of people who believe an abortion should be legal up to the day before birth regardless of any possible medical reason, it requires a significant effort on my side to try and understand their point of view. The same is true for equally extreme views on the other side. There seems to be a tendency in the US for more extreme views to persist and get (too much) traction, which is what seems to be happening to the most problematic extent on the left side right now. That's not an accusation, merely an observation. But if you want to escape those bad tendencies, it seems important that both sides dare to take a strong, inward look. With that, I don't really mean a personal inward look (some can no doubt use that, but I'm sure that many do not agree with the most extreme views within their party and are fine just ignoring those), but a look inside the party you support in its entirety. See if you can identify tendencies, viewpoints, whatever, ... that may have caused the scale to tip over so badly. And see if those are tendencies/viewpoints/whatever that have the same inherent characteristics as the things that are now causing problems on the left. I think if both sides would recognize those issues and show that recognition of them towards the others side, it would take you a great step forward.I do understand completely, if currently on the right side people don't exactly feel particularly motivated (let alone obigated) to do any introspection. I really don't. Nobody should lose their job for the reasons that have been outlined, and the fact that happens is regrettable and problematic. But that doesn't mean it's not potentially a good idea to do this introspection regardless. And that is all I'm trying to say.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.
Well, any kind of extremity is bad of course, and the right are definitely learning from their adversaries and picking up some of their bad habits. Things like victimhood culture, exacerbating controversies, etc.
But it's a matter of priorities and a comparative scale of threat. You're talking about fire hazards in the conservative household. Fair enough, fire hazards are bad and should be eliminated. But our neighbors to the left already have a full-on structure fire going, and worse, no one is calling the fire department.
I honestly care very little about the missteps of conservatives for the time being because conservatives have not been nearly as effective in creating societal distress. Far more improvement would be made putting the liberal fires out rather than worrying about conservatives.
I don't disagree with you at all. What I'm saying is that if you want to address that fire, you need the right fire extinguisher and not a fan that adds oxygen to that fire (no matter how hard it may seem right now to put out those fires even when you try it with a good fire extinguisher; you've tried so you know!). I fully understand why Trump was elected, and that those who voted for him feel alienated and rejected by the left. But if there's not going to come a growing recognition that Trump is a fan that feeds the flames (with which I don't mean he's a bad man, just not the right man in the right place) rather than a fire extinguisher (regardless of whether you see the left's reaction to him as justified or not), I don't see a positive evolution any time soon.
And then when the fire is (almost) out, you need to take away that what caused the fire in the first place. It is there where I see opportunities on both sides to look inwards. Easier said than done, I know...
Anyway, good luck with the Biden presidency. I hope he will at least slow down the growth of the fire. If not, get a republican back in the office in 2024!
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If the perception of this election is that there was widespread fraud in several states and the economy does not do well, the President in 2024 may well be Donald J. Trump.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Nunatax, do you think it's ok to deliver a baby, and cut it's throat while it's legs are still coming out of its mother?
I am aware of this procedure that you so happily describe in a way to achieve a maximum shock effect. Yeah, how can anyone possibly disagree with you now that you made clear sleepy Joe is nothing more than an awful, horrible person! Come on, the guy believes it's ok to kill babies! Yeah, every single one of those 74 million+ voters who voted for him should be ashamed of themselves! They are deplorable! (See what you are doing there?)
To answer your question: in any normal circumstance (healthy baby, no danger to the mother's life) I'm not ok with a late term abortion. To put it differently: if you are asking for an abortion for the simple reason of not wanting a baby but you're at the point where that specific procedure is required, then in my opinion you have waited too long. That's not a position that is hard to have or defend where I live. When abortion was legalized in my country, it was a big thing and so it should. A topic like that is not one to take lightly. But for as long as I can remember, the window to have an abortion without any medical reason, is limited in time. To me that is reasonable and it is an achievable compromise if you take the time to understand everyone's viewpoint. We do also have people vocal about wanting to extend the abortion deadline as well as others wanting more limitations. That makes the news on occasion, but it doesn't seem to divide our population, and there's no problem here with violence on abortion clinics. If I'm not mistaken, in the US such violence over the years has included (attempted) murder, arson, bombing ...
But anyway, when hearing stories of large groups of people who believe an abortion should be legal up to the day before birth regardless of any possible medical reason, it requires a significant effort on my side to try and understand their point of view. The same is true for equally extreme views on the other side. There seems to be a tendency in the US for more extreme views to persist and get (too much) traction, which is what seems to be happening to the most problematic extent on the left side right now. That's not an accusation, merely an observation. But if you want to escape those bad tendencies, it seems important that both sides dare to take a strong, inward look. With that, I don't really mean a personal inward look (some can no doubt use that, but I'm sure that many do not agree with the most extreme views within their party and are fine just ignoring those), but a look inside the party you support in its entirety. See if you can identify tendencies, viewpoints, whatever, ... that may have caused the scale to tip over so badly. And see if those are tendencies/viewpoints/whatever that have the same inherent characteristics as the things that are now causing problems on the left. I think if both sides would recognize those issues and show that recognition of them towards the others side, it would take you a great step forward.I do understand completely, if currently on the right side people don't exactly feel particularly motivated (let alone obigated) to do any introspection. I really don't. Nobody should lose their job for the reasons that have been outlined, and the fact that happens is regrettable and problematic. But that doesn't mean it's not potentially a good idea to do this introspection regardless. And that is all I'm trying to say.
Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?
I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.
Well, any kind of extremity is bad of course, and the right are definitely learning from their adversaries and picking up some of their bad habits. Things like victimhood culture, exacerbating controversies, etc.
But it's a matter of priorities and a comparative scale of threat. You're talking about fire hazards in the conservative household. Fair enough, fire hazards are bad and should be eliminated. But our neighbors to the left already have a full-on structure fire going, and worse, no one is calling the fire department.
I honestly care very little about the missteps of conservatives for the time being because conservatives have not been nearly as effective in creating societal distress. Far more improvement would be made putting the liberal fires out rather than worrying about conservatives.
I don't disagree with you at all. What I'm saying is that if you want to address that fire, you need the right fire extinguisher and not a fan that adds oxygen to that fire (no matter how hard it may seem right now to put out those fires even when you try it with a good fire extinguisher; you've tried so you know!). I fully understand why Trump was elected, and that those who voted for him feel alienated and rejected by the left. But if there's not going to come a growing recognition that Trump is a fan that feeds the flames (with which I don't mean he's a bad man, just not the right man in the right place) rather than a fire extinguisher (regardless of whether you see the left's reaction to him as justified or not), I don't see a positive evolution any time soon.
And then when the fire is (almost) out, you need to take away that what caused the fire in the first place. It is there where I see opportunities on both sides to look inwards. Easier said than done, I know...
Anyway, good luck with the Biden presidency. I hope he will at least slow down the growth of the fire. If not, get a republican back in the office in 2024!
That "fire" you refer to is the burning down of the political class and the return of power to the people. That fire won't stop burning just because Trump is gone.
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@Larry if I can put words in @Nunatax mouth, I think he is trying to say that just because you support President elect Biden, that does not mean that you support every policy of his.
For example, abortion is very important to you. And this may be an issue which can determine or support or non support of a candidate, no matter what their other policy are.
I think that @jolly mentioned that guns were important to him. Maybe he would support one candidate over the other because of that issue by itself. For @mark, maybe it is taxes. For others, maybe it is something different or maybe they don’t have any one issue.
For example, iif someone had divorce as their #1 issue in a candidate, maybe they would vote for president elect Biden over President Trump, even if they disagreed with many other things from President elect Biden.
Not everyone who supports Biden supports late abortionsi guess is my summary.
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@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Larry if I can put words in @Nunatax mouth, I think he is trying to say that just because you support President elect Biden, that does not mean that you support every policy of his.
For example, abortion is very important to you. And this may be an issue which can determine or support or non support of a candidate, no matter what their other policy are.
I think that @jolly mentioned that guns were important to him. Maybe he would support one candidate over the other because of that issue by itself. For @mark, maybe it is taxes. For others, maybe it is something different or maybe they don’t have any one issue.
For example, iif someone had divorce as their #1 issue in a candidate, maybe they would vote for president elect Biden over President Trump, even if they disagreed with many other things from President elect Biden.
Not everyone who supports Biden supports late abortionsi guess is my summary.
You can support a democrat candidate even if you disagree with his tax plan. You can support a democrat candidate even if you disagree with his position on the climate. But you CANNOT support a candidate or his political party when they passed the laws that made it legal to murder babies and who actively work to keep any and all attempts to narrow that act down without carrying the responsibility for all those murders on your shoulders along with them. Do not even TRY to tell me that you can rid yourself of that guilt.
Forget Biden. No one "supports" Biden. They support the democrat party. Try to stop late term abortion and the democrat party will raise holy hell. Every time you vote for, defend, support, agree with, etc a democrat, the democrat party, ... you are personally responsible for every single murdered baby right along with them, just as surely as if you had ripped its head off and pulled its arms off yourself.
YOU have their blood on YOUR hands right along with them. Trying to equate murdering babies with not liking a candidate because he's been divorced is you trying to dodge your own guilt. Not only that, it's a bogus comparison. To even come close to being a comparison it would have to be a situation where a political party passed laws requiring everyone to get a divorce themselves, and even that doesn't come anywhere close to the seriousness or the moral consequences of murdering babies.
So yes, if you "suppirt" Biden - or ANY democrat, you can tell yourself you don't support late term abortion all day long. But the only thing you will be doing is justifying your own guilt in your own mind. You are just as guilty of the murder of innocent babies as the politicians you put in office, and the doctor who decapitated and dismembered that innocent child. JYST as guilty.
So you can go back to shoving your head in the sand on this if it makes you feel better. Meanwhile, the politicians YOU choose and the party YOU chose made it legal to murder the tens of thousands of babies that will die in 2021 - and they couldn't have done it without YOUR support.
Do NOT try to justify murdering babies to me.
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We will have to agree to disagree. For you you, abortion is your “red line”. What you don’t understand is that it is not a “red line” issue for 100% of the people.
I would guess that there are people on this forum who
Support President Trump
AND
support abortion. -
@Klaus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
What is the elephant?
They use an elephant to stamp on the babies.
Which is pretty ironic. They really ought to use a big donkey.
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"My pronouns are FA/FO." - Mik, 2024
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@Mik said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Klaus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
What is the elephant?
The refusal to address the fact that the left is ever increasing its efforts to destroy the lives and careers of citizens who simply do not agree with them.
Well, that's barely an elephant in this room, i.e. at TNCR. We have discussed over and over again how the "woke" left is attempting to destroy some of the foundations of civilization. This is in fact almost unanimously agreed upon here.
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