Can we at least end one narrative?

[Nunatax]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump.

That's the biggest problem. That's where all this stems from.

I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists. That's just the narrative now. There's no "well I understand your position on smaller government but I disagree." It's "you're the worst kind of person for voting for Donald Trump. It's so obvious you voted for Trump because you hate blacks, gays, women and/or immigrants."

That's the story.

It’s regrettable that such things are said by people on the left, but as others have said as well, I doubt that that is the only story. Both sides have their nastiness to refer to. Take abortion for instance. It’s probably the most polarizing topic in the US and for that reason I’m more than a little hesitant to bring it up, but it’s quite illustrative.

If you’re someone who voted for Biden and you do some reading on this forum, you can bump into posts that not so subtly suggest that you are seen as someone who “has no problems killing babies in the womb”. You’re “pro-death”, a “baby killer”... Well, if that doesn’t make you feel as if the other side sees you as the most despicable human being on the planet I don’t know what does! And the pro-life movement isn’t quite innocent when it comes to the use of violence.

You may feel it coming more from the left side right now, and who knows, maybe it will get worse. But the above was just an example on how the right can stigmatise the left just as badly as the other way around. And the fact that many people of both sides are apparently all too eager to put practically everyone of the other side in a box, seems to me to be where all this stems from.

[Mik]

Nunatax, as Aqua says, you are wrong. No one has lost their job because they support gay marriage or because they acknowledge <SJW cause du jour>. Many, many people have because they ran afoul of the left.

[Nunatax]

@Mik and I’m not trying to minimise that, nor am I trying to deny that this could be the most direct cause of Trump’s election and the current state of things in your country. What I’m trying to say is that I don’t think it is the root cause.

[Larry]

Nunatax, do you think it's ok to deliver a baby, and cut it's throat while it's legs are still coming out of its mother?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

If you’re someone who voted for Biden and you do some reading on this forum, you can bump into posts that not so subtly suggest that you are seen as someone who “has no problems killing babies in the womb”. You’re “pro-death”, a “baby killer”... Well, if that doesn’t make you feel as if the other side sees you as the most despicable human being on the planet I don’t know what does!

If you want to cherry-pick nasty comments online then sure, yeah, okay, both sides guilty. But I'm not talking about nasty comments. If you think I am then you're not paying attention.

I want you to take a long, hard look at cancel culture and ask who's losing their jobs and why. Whose personal information is being publicized for harassment purposes and why. Who's doing the real, actual public property destruction. Who's demonizing public services as institutions. Who's turning entire universities upside-down. That shit didn't happen at Liberty or Campbell.

Link to video

I'm serious. Take a long time compiling that information. Try to find out which side on the political spectrum is engaging in this kind of behavior more.

[Horace]

Aqua is spot on. If anybody is interested in the good vs evil narrative, that's where I've found it to be, within my lifetime.

[Mik]

Agreed. And this has been going on at least 8 years that I know of.

[Jolly]

And getting worse.

[Mik]

And I mean personally know of, someone I know. A friend in the theater community got ousted from his job because his name showed up on a list of donors for definition of marriage proposition.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Mik said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

And I mean personally know of, someone I know. A friend in the theater community got ousted from his job because his name showed up on a list of donors against for definition of marriage proposition.

Same. I started noticing it personally around 2015 or so.

Prior to that, I thought such claims were due to outspoken conservatives just being whiny. I didn't believe it was a thing.

[Rainman]

Aqua, from way up in this thread:
"Last year, I had an HR complaint filed against me from a woman of an under-represented minority in which my gender and my height were used as evidence of my creating a threatening scenario. I was told I have to keep my gender and my height in mind when conversing with this person, and with others."

Your height. That's funny. Beyond ridiculous.

I had a formal complaint lodged against me for "using a deep male voice."

No kidding.

And as uncomfortable as the discussion resulting from the complaint was, everyone was obliged to treat it seriously, as if it somehow contained that special "your truth" perspective which is outcome-based idiocy.

Imagine if I were taller, and an even deeper voice! Shudder to think. . .

[Horace]

You rang?

[brenda]

Aqua, thank you for bringing this forward so well. It is happening, and it's spreading.

[Nunatax]

@Aqua-Letifer I don’t know in what other ways you apparently require me to say this, but I will repeat again that I’m not trying to minimise or deny any of what you are saying. And many on this board who I believe are more left leaning at the very least (though I could be wrong about their political ideas), back you on this as well. That’s good, no?

So yes, there’s little doubt in my mind that these issues on the left (perhaps to some extent in combination with the Hillary Clinton-factor), are the main driver of Trump’s rise and his continued support after 4 years as evidenced by the many votes he still got. And right at this moment in time, that’s definitely on the democrats (or at least a great deal of them).

Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.

Well, any kind of extremity is bad of course, and the right are definitely learning from their adversaries and picking up some of their bad habits. Things like victimhood culture, exacerbating controversies, etc.

But it's a matter of priorities and a comparative scale of threat. You're talking about fire hazards in the conservative household. Fair enough, fire hazards are bad and should be eliminated. But our neighbors to the left already have a full-on structure fire going, and worse, no one is calling the fire department.

I honestly care very little about the missteps of conservatives for the time being because conservatives have not been nearly as effective in creating societal distress. Far more improvement would be made putting the liberal fires out rather than worrying about conservatives.

[Klaus]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists.

I'm not a liberal but I for one have never thought of the majority of Trump voters as being racists. Racism is not the problem with Trump.

[Nunatax]

@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

Nunatax, do you think it's ok to deliver a baby, and cut it's throat while it's legs are still coming out of its mother?

I am aware of this procedure that you so happily describe in a way to achieve a maximum shock effect. Yeah, how can anyone possibly disagree with you now that you made clear sleepy Joe is nothing more than an awful, horrible person! Come on, the guy believes it's ok to kill babies! Yeah, every single one of those 74 million+ voters who voted for him should be ashamed of themselves! They are deplorable! (See what you are doing there?)

To answer your question: in any normal circumstance (healthy baby, no danger to the mother's life) I'm not ok with a late term abortion. To put it differently: if you are asking for an abortion for the simple reason of not wanting a baby but you're at the point where that specific procedure is required, then in my opinion you have waited too long. That's not a position that is hard to have or defend where I live. When abortion was legalized in my country, it was a big thing and so it should. A topic like that is not one to take lightly. But for as long as I can remember, the window to have an abortion without any medical reason, is limited in time. To me that is reasonable and it is an achievable compromise if you take the time to understand everyone's viewpoint. We do also have people vocal about wanting to extend the abortion deadline as well as others wanting more limitations. That makes the news on occasion, but it doesn't seem to divide our population, and there's no problem here with violence on abortion clinics. If I'm not mistaken, in the US such violence over the years has included (attempted) murder, arson, bombing ...
But anyway, when hearing stories of large groups of people who believe an abortion should be legal up to the day before birth regardless of any possible medical reason, it requires a significant effort on my side to try and understand their point of view. The same is true for equally extreme views on the other side. There seems to be a tendency in the US for more extreme views to persist and get (too much) traction, which is what seems to be happening to the most problematic extent on the left side right now. That's not an accusation, merely an observation. But if you want to escape those bad tendencies, it seems important that both sides dare to take a strong, inward look. With that, I don't really mean a personal inward look (some can no doubt use that, but I'm sure that many do not agree with the most extreme views within their party and are fine just ignoring those), but a look inside the party you support in its entirety. See if you can identify tendencies, viewpoints, whatever, ... that may have caused the scale to tip over so badly. And see if those are tendencies/viewpoints/whatever that have the same inherent characteristics as the things that are now causing problems on the left. I think if both sides would recognize those issues and show that recognition of them towards the others side, it would take you a great step forward.

I do understand completely, if currently on the right side people don't exactly feel particularly motivated (let alone obigated) to do any introspection. I really don't. Nobody should lose their job for the reasons that have been outlined, and the fact that happens is regrettable and problematic. But that doesn't mean it's not potentially a good idea to do this introspection regardless. And that is all I'm trying to say.

[Nunatax]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

Here’s where I see a potentially big problem though that may really hinder addressing this problem: because these issues at this point in time seem to be mainly democrat driven, the other side sees this as an excuse not to have to look at themselves. And from what I see, the right side has its own of such ideas that can easily grow to problems of the same magnitude as you see on the left side right now. That’s not to blame anyone, and there’s nothing wrong with introspection. On the contrary, it’s interesting and can help you grow. But if the right is going to insist that only the left is in need of introspection, I don’t see how you’re going to get out of the woods anytime soon.

Well, any kind of extremity is bad of course, and the right are definitely learning from their adversaries and picking up some of their bad habits. Things like victimhood culture, exacerbating controversies, etc.

But it's a matter of priorities and a comparative scale of threat. You're talking about fire hazards in the conservative household. Fair enough, fire hazards are bad and should be eliminated. But our neighbors to the left already have a full-on structure fire going, and worse, no one is calling the fire department.

I honestly care very little about the missteps of conservatives for the time being because conservatives have not been nearly as effective in creating societal distress. Far more improvement would be made putting the liberal fires out rather than worrying about conservatives.

I don't disagree with you at all. What I'm saying is that if you want to address that fire, you need the right fire extinguisher and not a fan that adds oxygen to that fire (no matter how hard it may seem right now to put out those fires even when you try it with a good fire extinguisher; you've tried so you know!). I fully understand why Trump was elected, and that those who voted for him feel alienated and rejected by the left. But if there's not going to come a growing recognition that Trump is a fan that feeds the flames (with which I don't mean he's a bad man, just not the right man in the right place) rather than a fire extinguisher (regardless of whether you see the left's reaction to him as justified or not), I don't see a positive evolution any time soon.

And then when the fire is (almost) out, you need to take away that what caused the fire in the first place. It is there where I see opportunities on both sides to look inwards. Easier said than done, I know...

Anyway, good luck with the Biden presidency. I hope he will at least slow down the growth of the fire. If not, get a republican back in the office in 2024!

[Jolly]

If the perception of this election is that there was widespread fraud in several states and the economy does not do well, the President in 2024 may well be Donald J. Trump.

[Larry]

@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

@Larry said in Can we at least end one narrative?:

Nunatax, do you think it's ok to deliver a baby, and cut it's throat while it's legs are still coming out of its mother?

I am aware of this procedure that you so happily describe in a way to achieve a maximum shock effect. Yeah, how can anyone possibly disagree with you now that you made clear sleepy Joe is nothing more than an awful, horrible person! Come on, the guy believes it's ok to kill babies! Yeah, every single one of those 74 million+ voters who voted for him should be ashamed of themselves! They are deplorable! (See what you are doing there?)

To answer your question: in any normal circumstance (healthy baby, no danger to the mother's life) I'm not ok with a late term abortion. To put it differently: if you are asking for an abortion for the simple reason of not wanting a baby but you're at the point where that specific procedure is required, then in my opinion you have waited too long. That's not a position that is hard to have or defend where I live. When abortion was legalized in my country, it was a big thing and so it should. A topic like that is not one to take lightly. But for as long as I can remember, the window to have an abortion without any medical reason, is limited in time. To me that is reasonable and it is an achievable compromise if you take the time to understand everyone's viewpoint. We do also have people vocal about wanting to extend the abortion deadline as well as others wanting more limitations. That makes the news on occasion, but it doesn't seem to divide our population, and there's no problem here with violence on abortion clinics. If I'm not mistaken, in the US such violence over the years has included (attempted) murder, arson, bombing ...
But anyway, when hearing stories of large groups of people who believe an abortion should be legal up to the day before birth regardless of any possible medical reason, it requires a significant effort on my side to try and understand their point of view. The same is true for equally extreme views on the other side. There seems to be a tendency in the US for more extreme views to persist and get (too much) traction, which is what seems to be happening to the most problematic extent on the left side right now. That's not an accusation, merely an observation. But if you want to escape those bad tendencies, it seems important that both sides dare to take a strong, inward look. With that, I don't really mean a personal inward look (some can no doubt use that, but I'm sure that many do not agree with the most extreme views within their party and are fine just ignoring those), but a look inside the party you support in its entirety. See if you can identify tendencies, viewpoints, whatever, ... that may have caused the scale to tip over so badly. And see if those are tendencies/viewpoints/whatever that have the same inherent characteristics as the things that are now causing problems on the left. I think if both sides would recognize those issues and show that recognition of them towards the others side, it would take you a great step forward.

I do understand completely, if currently on the right side people don't exactly feel particularly motivated (let alone obigated) to do any introspection. I really don't. Nobody should lose their job for the reasons that have been outlined, and the fact that happens is regrettable and problematic. But that doesn't mean it's not potentially a good idea to do this introspection regardless. And that is all I'm trying to say.

Ah, so you think a description of the procedure is just for "shock value", and you'd prefer that it be described in more fluffy bunny terms... I see.. do you think that makes the pain that baby feels any less painful?

I'm sorry, but I will not describe the murder of an innocent baby in fluffy bunny terms just to make those who support the murder of that baby feel better about themselves. Nor do I feel any need to "understand the viewpoint" of those who support such murder for political reasons. It is not a political issue, it is a moral issue. It only becomes a political issue when those same people who support and defend the murder of innocent babies try to claim to be morally superior because of their political ideology. I think contrary to your attempt to accommodate their feelings, they should be forced to watch a few of these murders, and when referring to these murders that they support it should be done using the most accurate, graphic description possible.