Trump to unveil healthcare plan
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
There's lots wrong with socialized medical systems, but that's by design.
There's some sort of mechanism in those systems that say "we only have $X, so what level of care do we need to deliver". As Phibes says, its underfunded. But that's almost by design.
In the U.S. - insurance defaults to covering the best treatments and the cost gets pushed to the private sector. And the cost continually grows. Either you can afford it or you can't.
It's not like the average consumer can negotiate the particulars of healthcare ( doctor rates, treatments alternatives, etc). - unlike other big purchases (home, cars, etc.)
Actually, you can.
The average consumer can have a pretty good perspective a on the size of a dwelling they want for their family of 4... the location... etc... the cost tradeoffs.
The average consumer can have a pretty good idea of how to think through similar things for a car.
How would an average consumer start to think about what they should spend on their heart disease or cancer treatment?
If they could figure that out - how much is an increased chance of survival worth?
Your money, your life.
Well - my last point should have - the consumer actually doesn't have the option to choose their standard of care.
It's what the doctor wants (they don't think about cost) - for prices negotiated with insurance in advance.
So yes, your money. But if you're covered, there's few other decisions you can make.
Options of care?
Ask Jon why he had his surgery where he did. Ask George if he could have told you who was the best ortho in his area. When I had my surgery, I weighed and decided on the hospital, the procedure and the surgeon.
Now, sure, whatever insurance you have only pays a set fee to a negotiated list of providers. It's definitely not the take it or leave it of socialized medicine.
OTOH, if you don't have insurance, prices can be negotiated.
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@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
There's lots wrong with socialized medical systems, but that's by design.
There's some sort of mechanism in those systems that say "we only have $X, so what level of care do we need to deliver". As Phibes says, its underfunded. But that's almost by design.
In the U.S. - insurance defaults to covering the best treatments and the cost gets pushed to the private sector. And the cost continually grows. Either you can afford it or you can't.
It's not like the average consumer can negotiate the particulars of healthcare ( doctor rates, treatments alternatives, etc). - unlike other big purchases (home, cars, etc.)
Actually, you can.
The average consumer can have a pretty good perspective a on the size of a dwelling they want for their family of 4... the location... etc... the cost tradeoffs.
The average consumer can have a pretty good idea of how to think through similar things for a car.
How would an average consumer start to think about what they should spend on their heart disease or cancer treatment?
If they could figure that out - how much is an increased chance of survival worth?
Your money, your life.
Well - my last point should have - the consumer actually doesn't have the option to choose their standard of care.
It's what the doctor wants (they don't think about cost) - for prices negotiated with insurance in advance.
So yes, your money. But if you're covered, there's few other decisions you can make.
Options of care?
Ask Jon why he had his surgery where he did. Ask George if he could have told you who was the best ortho in his area. When I had my surgery, I weighed and decided on the hospital, the procedure and the surgeon.
Now, sure, whatever insurance you have only pays a set fee to a negotiated list of providers. It's definitely not the take it or leave it of socialized medicine.
OTOH, if you don't have insurance, prices can be negotiated.
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Jolly said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
There's lots wrong with socialized medical systems, but that's by design.
There's some sort of mechanism in those systems that say "we only have $X, so what level of care do we need to deliver". As Phibes says, its underfunded. But that's almost by design.
In the U.S. - insurance defaults to covering the best treatments and the cost gets pushed to the private sector. And the cost continually grows. Either you can afford it or you can't.
It's not like the average consumer can negotiate the particulars of healthcare ( doctor rates, treatments alternatives, etc). - unlike other big purchases (home, cars, etc.)
Actually, you can.
The average consumer can have a pretty good perspective a on the size of a dwelling they want for their family of 4... the location... etc... the cost tradeoffs.
The average consumer can have a pretty good idea of how to think through similar things for a car.
How would an average consumer start to think about what they should spend on their heart disease or cancer treatment?
If they could figure that out - how much is an increased chance of survival worth?
Your money, your life.
Well - my last point should have - the consumer actually doesn't have the option to choose their standard of care.
It's what the doctor wants (they don't think about cost) - for prices negotiated with insurance in advance.
So yes, your money. But if you're covered, there's few other decisions you can make.
Options of care?
Ask Jon why he had his surgery where he did. Ask George if he could have told you who was the best ortho in his area. When I had my surgery, I weighed and decided on the hospital, the procedure and the surgeon.
Now, sure, whatever insurance you have only pays a set fee to a negotiated list of providers. It's definitely not the take it or leave it of socialized medicine.
OTOH, if you don't have insurance, prices can be negotiated.
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
The answer will be yes no matter what anybody thinks. So many reasons why but one example is there will always be supplemental insurance if single payer hits and guess who that doc will be seeing???
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In the UK you can pay for private health coverage on top of what the NHS offers, so rich people get taken care of there, too.
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
Why wouldn't you pay more for higher quality?
You do that for everything else, food, clothing, shelter, transportation, toys and games.
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@Copper said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
Why wouldn't you pay more for higher quality?
You do that for everything else, food, clothing, shelter, transportation, toys and games.
Have you ever explicitly paid more or less for specific physicians?
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@Axtremus said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Larry said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
I bet they could do it if the government got out of the way......
They can do it if the government removes any regulation that prevents the insurance company from refusing coverage to people who was sick, is sick, or is likely to be sick soon and terminating coverage for any existing customer who become sick.
Wow. You honestly have no clue how capitalism and a free market works, do you... you've spent your entire life in a cubicle and never once had to compete with anyone, or even understand how competition works. That's truly sad.
Ax thinks government is the answer to everything. TG and xenon know everything about everything. No sense trying to teach them anything new, they already know more than anyone else...
There's just one problem.... they don't.
Some doctors are better than others. The really good ones tend to not be willing to work for the peanuts the government demands they accept for payment. Government control of health insurance will not get rid of that, and those who can afford the best will do so. This talking point by the democrat lemmings like Ax is just that - a talking point. First, most people who work for someone else is on a group plan. Competition was the reason group plans have to accept any employee into the group, even if they have pre existing conditions. The smaller number of people who couldnt get on a group plan could pick a major medical plan from dozens upon dozens of choices, competition made them sweeten their products with a way to get coverage on pre existing conditions.
Then the democrats decided they could get votes if they got involved in things, and hired a bunch of know it all pencil pushers to come up with the convoluted mess today's know it all pencil pushers argue in favor of. The truth is, they screwed it up to start with, they're screwing it up now, but since they know it all just shut up.
When I turned 65 the government informed me that I had to use Medicare whether I wanted to or not. Since I had been forced to pay for it for years, and since I was being forced to pay for it now, I use it. Before that I paid all my medical bills out of my pocket. Because they didn't have to fool with the fucked up mess of paperwork the government made them do, I got a cash discount every time, sometimes as much as 70%.
If you want to fix the health insurance problem, get government out of it and allow competition.
Sorry to the 3 geniuses, but that's just how it is.
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Copper said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
Why wouldn't you pay more for higher quality?
You do that for everything else, food, clothing, shelter, transportation, toys and games.
Have you ever explicitly paid more or less for specific physicians?
Yes.
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@Larry said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Copper said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
Why wouldn't you pay more for higher quality?
You do that for everything else, food, clothing, shelter, transportation, toys and games.
Have you ever explicitly paid more or less for specific physicians?
Yes.
Were you covered by insurance for those physicians? Did you pay over and above your insurance?
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@Larry said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
S few networks. I hire the best and negotiate.
I'm trying to understand. My insurance has always covered physicians - I lived in SF so had access to to pretty expensive, nationally high ranked systems.
Why would you go over and above your insurance?
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I know one Mass Gen surgeon (through a friend). His rates don't change - but he only takes patients through referrals of doctors he has relationships with.
This guy is world renowned, but he doesn't get directly paid more for his services. (he gets paid more for other reasons)
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
I know one Mass Gen surgeon (through a friend). His rates don't change - but he only takes patients through referrals of doctors he has relationships with.
This guy is world renowned, but he doesn't get directly paid more for his services. (he gets paid more for other reasons)
Ask you surgeon friend whether he expects to continue to get paid 600k plus a year if the country goes single payer.
Ask him also what his income would be if his entire panel where Medicare.
Finally ask him where most his income comes from.
You can get the answers from him directly.
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Copper said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
Do you pay more out of pocket for the best surgeon or ortho? Should you?
Why wouldn't you pay more for higher quality?
You do that for everything else, food, clothing, shelter, transportation, toys and games.
Have you ever explicitly paid more or less for specific physicians?
Yes, a lot more.
I subscribed to a concierge plan up until I moved last year. I liked the doctor, I had been seeing him for years. When he switched to this plan I followed him.
You can read about it here: https://www.mdvip.com/
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@Loki said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
I know one Mass Gen surgeon (through a friend). His rates don't change - but he only takes patients through referrals of doctors he has relationships with.
This guy is world renowned, but he doesn't get directly paid more for his services. (he gets paid more for other reasons)
Ask you surgeon friend whether he expects to continue to get paid 600k plus a year if the country goes single payer.
Ask him also what his income would be if his entire panel where Medicare.
Finally ask him where most his income comes from.
You can get the answers from him directly.
You’re working backwards from the premise that I’m some sort of socialized healthcare advocate.
I get great healthcare in the US. Better than Canada (though it was not bad).
My point is that there’s a mistaken assumption that market forces are somehow controlling cost in this country.
They are not. That’s a market failure.
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Larry said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
S few networks. I hire the best and negotiate.
I'm trying to understand. My insurance has always covered physicians - I lived in SF so had access to to pretty expensive, nationally high ranked systems.
Why would you go over and above your insurance?
You didn't understand a damned word I said.
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@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Loki said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
I know one Mass Gen surgeon (through a friend). His rates don't change - but he only takes patients through referrals of doctors he has relationships with.
This guy is world renowned, but he doesn't get directly paid more for his services. (he gets paid more for other reasons)
Ask you surgeon friend whether he expects to continue to get paid 600k plus a year if the country goes single payer.
Ask him also what his income would be if his entire panel where Medicare.
Finally ask him where most his income comes from.
You can get the answers from him directly.
You’re working backwards from the premise that I’m some sort of socialized healthcare advocate.
I get great healthcare in the US. Better than Canada (though it was not bad).
My point is that there’s a mistaken assumption that market forces are somehow controlling cost in this country.
They are not. That’s a market failure.
Once again, you don't understand. There are no market forces controlling a fucking thing. That's the whole point. It can't be a market failure when government is stopping the market from working.
Jesus H. CRISP.
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@Larry said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@Loki said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
@xenon said in Trump to unveil healthcare plan:
I know one Mass Gen surgeon (through a friend). His rates don't change - but he only takes patients through referrals of doctors he has relationships with.
This guy is world renowned, but he doesn't get directly paid more for his services. (he gets paid more for other reasons)
Ask you surgeon friend whether he expects to continue to get paid 600k plus a year if the country goes single payer.
Ask him also what his income would be if his entire panel where Medicare.
Finally ask him where most his income comes from.
You can get the answers from him directly.
You’re working backwards from the premise that I’m some sort of socialized healthcare advocate.
I get great healthcare in the US. Better than Canada (though it was not bad).
My point is that there’s a mistaken assumption that market forces are somehow controlling cost in this country.
They are not. That’s a market failure.
Once again, you don't understand. There are no market forces controlling a fucking thing. That's the whole point. It can't be a market failure when government is stopping the market from working.
Jesus H. CRISP.
The existence of Obamacare (what's that like <10% of insurance) - doesn't dismantle the fundamentals of he insurance system that has been essentially the same for decades.
When did the US stop having a market based system, in your view?
