Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:23 last edited by Horace 10 May 2020, 16:23
Just kidding. I thought it was funny how stern Aqua was being.
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:24 last edited by
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:24 last edited by Doctor Phibes 10 May 2020, 16:25
@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus we are all very disappointed in you.
I'm not. At least he's not playing the piano or telling jokes whilst he's Googling all this stuff
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
I was talking about osteopathy the whole time, which I made unambiguously clear. The Wikipedia article on osteopathy starts with the sentence "Osteopathy is a type of alternative medicine". Which means: "not evidence-based". I do understand what the American DO education entails. But that's not what I have addressed.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:27 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
I was talking about osteopathy the whole time, which I made unambiguously clear. The Wikipedia article on osteopathy starts with the sentence "Osteopathy is a type of alternative medicine". Which means: "not evidence-based". I do understand what the American DO education entails. But that's not what I have addressed.
Nice backtrack!
Even if somebody has all the knowledge that a normal medical doctor has, the fact that (s)he's willing to put up with witchcraft in one domain would make me question the overall trustworthiness.
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
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In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:27 last edited by@George-K said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
The last time I spoke to a chiropractor in his office it was at his invitation, so he could offer me an opportunity to invest in some financial products he sells as a side gig.
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@George-K said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
The last time I spoke to a chiropractor in his office it was at his invitation, so he could offer me an opportunity to invest in some financial products he sells as a side gig.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:27 last edited by@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@George-K said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
The last time I spoke to a chiropractor in his office it was at his invitation, so he could offer me an opportunity to invest in some financial products he sells as a side gig.
That's awesome.
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:29 last edited by
See, here's the kind of BS that bothers me...
Evidence-based osteopathic manipulative treatment for common conditions
Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) is a unique aspect of osteopathic medicine that has served as a useful adjunct to traditional surgical and pharmacological treatment of medical conditions for more than 100 years. Using an approach based on five basic body functions, as well as traditional modern medical and surgical therapeutics, OMT enhances the body's innate ability to fight inflammation and other systemic results of disease states. OMT has been shown to be a safe and cost-effective treatment for back pain, in particular for patients who have continued pain despite standard treatments and for those who are unable or unwilling to take pain relievers. For patients with pneumonia, OMT can reduce the need for potentially dangerous antibiotics and reduce the length of a patient's hospital stay. In addition, in children with otitis media, OMT can be used as an adjunct to antibiotic and surgical treatment to decrease morbidity, reduce antibiotic usage, and decrease the discomfort associated with the symptoms of a middle ear infection.
I see OMT as an extension of physical therapy.
From Wiki:
A 2005 Cochrane review of OMT in asthma treatment concluded that there was insufficient evidence that OMT can be used to treat asthma.
In 2013, a Cochrane review reviewed six randomized controlled trials which investigated the effect of four types of chest physiotherapy (including OMT) as adjunctive treatments for pneumonia in adults and concluded that "based on current limited evidence, chest physiotherapy might not be recommended as routine additional treatment for pneumonia in adults." Techniques investigated in the study included paraspinal inhibition, rib raising, and myofascial release. The review found that OMT did not reduce mortality and did not increase cure rate, but that OMT slightly reduced the duration of hospital stay and antibiotic use.[54] A 2013 systematic review of the use of OMT for treating pediatric conditions concluded that its effectiveness was unproven.[55]
In 2014, a systematic review and meta-analysis of 15 randomized controlled trials found moderate-quality evidence that OMT reduces pain and improves functional status in acute and chronic nonspecific low back pain.[56] The same analysis also found moderate-quality evidence for pain reduction for nonspecific low back pain in postpartum women and low-quality evidence for pain reduction in nonspecific low back pain in pregnant women.[56] A 2013 systematic review found insufficient evidence to rate osteopathic manipulation for chronic nonspecific low back pain.[57] In 2011, a systematic review found no compelling evidence that osteopathic manipulation was effective for the treatment of musculoskeletal pain.[58]
A 2018 systematic review found that there is no evidence for the reliability or specific efficacy of the techniques used in visceral osteopathy.[59]
The New England Journal of Medicine's 4 November 1999 issue concluded that patients with chronic low back pain can be treated effectively with manipulation.[60] The United Kingdom's National Health Service says there is "limited evidence" that osteopathy "may be effective for some types of neck, shoulder or lower limb pain and recovery after hip or knee operations", but that there is no evidence that osteopathy is effective as a treatment for health conditions unrelated to the bones and muscles.[61] Others have concluded that there is insufficient evidence to suggest efficacy for osteopathic style manipulation in treating musculoskeletal pain.[62]
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
I was talking about osteopathy the whole time, which I made unambiguously clear. The Wikipedia article on osteopathy starts with the sentence "Osteopathy is a type of alternative medicine". Which means: "not evidence-based". I do understand what the American DO education entails. But that's not what I have addressed.
Nice backtrack!
Even if somebody has all the knowledge that a normal medical doctor has, the fact that (s)he's willing to put up with witchcraft in one domain would make me question the overall trustworthiness.
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:32 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:32 last edited by
I got the impression that chiropractors stop it (whatever it is) hurting for a limited time, but then you end up going back once it starts hurting again.
So, basically they're like really expensive pain-killers that don't damage your liver.
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:32 last edited by
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:34 last edited by
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
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wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:35 last edited by
@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:35 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
It's a bit like Ben Carson. Awesome brain surgeon, but completely nutty views about other stuff. I'd still have been happy about him doing my brain surgery, but wouldn't want him involved in, say, food storage policy.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:35 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs, so you really shouldn't even conclude that much at present. But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs, so you really shouldn't even conclude that much at present. But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:36 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
It seems obvious that you have, at best, an internet understanding of freedom.
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@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:37 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
There’s little evidence that it does.
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@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:39 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
Literally it does. DOs are currently undertaking an unprecedented study of how empathy changes over time in medical students. Oh and yes, it's scientific and evidence-based.
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs, so you really shouldn't even conclude that much at present. But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:39 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs
Well, and you seem to have no understanding on why that difference doesn't matter at all for my point.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
It seems obvious that you have, at best, an internet understanding of freedom.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:39 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
It seems obvious that you have, at best, an internet understanding of freedom.
Good place to start. The stakes of free speech, the freedom upon which all other freedoms are based, are fought over in battlegrounds all across that landscape.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs
Well, and you seem to have no understanding on why that difference doesn't matter at all for my point.
wrote on 5 Oct 2020, 16:40 last edited by@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs
Well, and you seem to have no understanding on why that difference doesn't matter at all for my point.
Preach on, Quirt!
(Sorry, Quirt.)