Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
But osteopathy isn't based on scientific evidence.
Even if somebody has all the knowledge that a normal medical doctor has, the fact that (s)he's willing to put up with witchcraft in one domain would make me question the overall trustworthiness. Either you believe in evidence-based medicine or not. Ex falso quodlibet. There's no in-between.
And, you're wrong about that too. You got your DO degree at Dunning–Kruger University and you should probably stop.
I have no clue what you mean by that.
I mean you don't know what you're talking about here, but you seem to think you do. You're disparaging an entire medical field without knowing anything about how it differs.
No. Do you need to be an expert in astrology to conclude that it's hogwash?
It's not evidence-based medicine. Not being evidence-based means that there is no evidence that it works, or that there is evidence that it doesn't work. That's really all you need to know about it. It's a book for the "fiction" section, not "non-fiction". The details are irrelevant unless you are interested in fiction stories.
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
You're not getting hung up on the tenets because you don't even know what the fuck they are. You're getting hung up on OMT, which you're going to have to look up to confirm because you don't know what "OMT" means, either. But that's okay, I'll do you work for you since you're clearly too lazy.
In the U.S., OMT was developed and gained traction because doctors were performing surgeries that were, one after another, killing their patients. OMT started to come around because some doctors didn't want to do that. It's pretty fucking evidence-based. Today, it's often taught as yet another tool in the box.
Speaking of osteopathic techniques, no other medical field in the world has developed definitions as rigid and rigorous as American DOs. Not MDs, not dentists, not nurses, nobody. And you know precisely nothing about what this process was, speaking of evidence.
Back to the tenets, which you also know dick about. There's an osteopathic philosophy that's baked into their training, which centers on caring for the whole person, not a particular symptom. If that sounds like silly quackery to you, then I'm very sorry to report that non-DO medical schools around the world are adopting these philosophies more than in the past because they found them so helpful.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
I was talking about osteopathy the whole time, which I made unambiguously clear. The Wikipedia article on osteopathy starts with the sentence "Osteopathy is a type of alternative medicine". Which means: "not evidence-based". I do understand what the American DO education entails. But that's not what I have addressed.
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In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus we are all very disappointed in you.
I'm not. At least he's not playing the piano or telling jokes whilst he's Googling all this stuff
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
Klaus you're a smart guy, but I've tried to tell you many times that the term doesn't mean the same in the U.S. as it does in Europe. And now you're just being a bit of an asshole.
I was talking about osteopathy the whole time, which I made unambiguously clear. The Wikipedia article on osteopathy starts with the sentence "Osteopathy is a type of alternative medicine". Which means: "not evidence-based". I do understand what the American DO education entails. But that's not what I have addressed.
Nice backtrack!
Even if somebody has all the knowledge that a normal medical doctor has, the fact that (s)he's willing to put up with witchcraft in one domain would make me question the overall trustworthiness.
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
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@George-K said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
The last time I spoke to a chiropractor in his office it was at his invitation, so he could offer me an opportunity to invest in some financial products he sells as a side gig.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@George-K said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
In my no-so-educated opinion, a lot of what I read about osteopaths doing OMT for various conditions strikes me as quackery. OMT for otitis media? C'mon, man!
OTOH, there seems to be a crossover between osteopathic treatments and physical therapy. I my series of one, I developed serious cervical foramenal stenosis. I was plagued by pain, numbness and weakness on the ulnar distribution of my left arm. Saw a neurosurgeon who, after looking at the MRI, said I needed PT.
Between exercises and PT, I became symptom free, and I remain that way 18 months later.
So, yeah, there's something to it, but one has to know where the line should be drawn. All the osteopaths I know are aware of that line.
Chiropracters? Not so much.
The last time I spoke to a chiropractor in his office it was at his invitation, so he could offer me an opportunity to invest in some financial products he sells as a side gig.
That's awesome.
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See, here's the kind of BS that bothers me...
Evidence-based osteopathic manipulative treatment for common conditions
Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) is a unique aspect of osteopathic medicine that has served as a useful adjunct to traditional surgical and pharmacological treatment of medical conditions for more than 100 years. Using an approach based on five basic body functions, as well as traditional modern medical and surgical therapeutics, OMT enhances the body's innate ability to fight inflammation and other systemic results of disease states. OMT has been shown to be a safe and cost-effective treatment for back pain, in particular for patients who have continued pain despite standard treatments and for those who are unable or unwilling to take pain relievers. For patients with pneumonia, OMT can reduce the need for potentially dangerous antibiotics and reduce the length of a patient's hospital stay. In addition, in children with otitis media, OMT can be used as an adjunct to antibiotic and surgical treatment to decrease morbidity, reduce antibiotic usage, and decrease the discomfort associated with the symptoms of a middle ear infection.
I see OMT as an extension of physical therapy.
From Wiki:
A 2005 Cochrane review of OMT in asthma treatment concluded that there was insufficient evidence that OMT can be used to treat asthma.
In 2013, a Cochrane review reviewed six randomized controlled trials which investigated the effect of four types of chest physiotherapy (including OMT) as adjunctive treatments for pneumonia in adults and concluded that "based on current limited evidence, chest physiotherapy might not be recommended as routine additional treatment for pneumonia in adults." Techniques investigated in the study included paraspinal inhibition, rib raising, and myofascial release. The review found that OMT did not reduce mortality and did not increase cure rate, but that OMT slightly reduced the duration of hospital stay and antibiotic use.[54] A 2013 systematic review of the use of OMT for treating pediatric conditions concluded that its effectiveness was unproven.[55]
In 2014, a systematic review and meta-analysis of 15 randomized controlled trials found moderate-quality evidence that OMT reduces pain and improves functional status in acute and chronic nonspecific low back pain.[56] The same analysis also found moderate-quality evidence for pain reduction for nonspecific low back pain in postpartum women and low-quality evidence for pain reduction in nonspecific low back pain in pregnant women.[56] A 2013 systematic review found insufficient evidence to rate osteopathic manipulation for chronic nonspecific low back pain.[57] In 2011, a systematic review found no compelling evidence that osteopathic manipulation was effective for the treatment of musculoskeletal pain.[58]
A 2018 systematic review found that there is no evidence for the reliability or specific efficacy of the techniques used in visceral osteopathy.[59]
The New England Journal of Medicine's 4 November 1999 issue concluded that patients with chronic low back pain can be treated effectively with manipulation.[60] The United Kingdom's National Health Service says there is "limited evidence" that osteopathy "may be effective for some types of neck, shoulder or lower limb pain and recovery after hip or knee operations", but that there is no evidence that osteopathy is effective as a treatment for health conditions unrelated to the bones and muscles.[61] Others have concluded that there is insufficient evidence to suggest efficacy for osteopathic style manipulation in treating musculoskeletal pain.[62]
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
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I got the impression that chiropractors stop it (whatever it is) hurting for a limited time, but then you end up going back once it starts hurting again.
So, basically they're like really expensive pain-killers that don't damage your liver.
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Education is extremely important.
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
It's a bit like Ben Carson. Awesome brain surgeon, but completely nutty views about other stuff. I'd still have been happy about him doing my brain surgery, but wouldn't want him involved in, say, food storage policy.
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
No, you were saying DOs were crap doctors because they didn't renounce that part of their training because in your eyes it's quackery.
Well, I still stand by that statement. But of course a DO can still do a great job. I was merely saying that I wouldn't trust somebody who does evidence-based medicine AND some form of "alternative medicine" because, in my opinion, it spoils their credibility. I assume you grant me the freedom to choose myself whom I trust?
I think it's pretty obvious you have an internet understanding at best of the difference between European osteopaths and American DOs, so you really shouldn't even conclude that much at present. But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
But yeah absolutely, free country, yours and mine!
It seems obvious that you have, at best, an internet understanding of freedom.
Proud supporter of Plan 2525. Everything you think, do and say will be in the pill you took today.
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@Klaus said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
@Horace said in Trump to quarantine awaiting Covid test:
My extraordinary compassion prevents me from hurting people’s feelings.
Does osteopathy help against hurt feelings?
There’s little evidence that it does.
