Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse

The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Decision markets and reshaping the world

Decision markets and reshaping the world

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Discussion
8 Posts 5 Posters 73 Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote last edited by
    #1

    Robin Hanson's newsletter has a lot of bragging about what a transcendental genius he is. I'm not here to say he's wrong. Here he explains how his best idea, decision markets, could reshape the world. Unclear how/why any government would take this on as a decision making apparatus though.


    Many (Poincaré 1908, Schumpeter 1911, Ogburn 1922) have said that, as there are so many good ideas out there, most innovation is just simple combos of prior good ideas. This seems true of my best idea.

    April 25, 1996, thirty years ago today, I first posted my best idea: decision markets, i.e., speculative markets that advise specific decisions by estimating decision-conditional outcomes. A.k.a., “futarchy” when applied to governance. It’s not my deepest, most elegant, or hardest won insight, just the one with the biggest expected impact.

    My idea was a simple combo of two other long-well-known ideas.

    The first prior idea I built on is that speculative markets do quite well at aggregating info. This was explored in theory (Emory 1896, Gibson 1889, Bachelier 1900) and in data (Cowles 1933, Working 1934). Even so in 1996, US regulators in practice only allowed risk-hedging, not info aggregation, as an “economics rationale” to allow markets to exist. (The allowed “price discovery” rationale was tied to helping other markets hedge risks.)

    In 1984 I left grad school in physics and philosophy of science at U Chicago to go to Silicon Valley to do AI research, and on the side work with Xanadu, trying to invent the World Wide Web. Around 1988 I first started to have doubts about the Xanadu vision of reforming public convo by making criticism easy to find, and wondered what else we could do instead. So I started to think and write about the big potential of making speculative markets to aggregate info on far more topics. Like most everyone who first enters this space, I was first thinking mainly in terms of markets on the usual topics we see in mass media, punditry, and public policy debates.

    The second prior idea I built on is that info is mainly valuable by informing specific decisions. For many centuries we’ve seen calculations of the value of certain specific info for specific decisions. And then we developed more general theory (Ramsey 1928, Hosiansson 1931, Blackwell 1951, Savage 1953, Schlaifer 1959). At Caltech social science grad school 1993-1997, I learned decision theory and the standard value of info calculation. Then wondering where speculative markets could add the most info value, ~1996 I realized that this would likely come from markets estimating specific outcomes given specific decision choices.

    As I was one of the first to write on the big potential of prediction markets, many who entered this space over the years approached me. At which point I usually pitched this decision market concept. Which usually pushed them away, as they were focused, as I was initially, on those mass media and punditry topics. But I have doggedly persisted.

    Most all innovations combine simple elegant ideas with messy details that make those ideas work. Mine is no different. To find the right messy details, one needs concrete trials and experiments trying different detail versions. It has been hard to find orgs willing to do this, as org decision making is usually quite political. But in the last few years we’ve thankfully started to see some trials.

    As an econ professor who specialized in governance, I can assure you that the world is greatly structured by the fact that we typically have pretty incompetent governance. Imagine a governance that, when assigned a goal, would reliably achieve that if it is in fact feasible. This would radically reshape our whole world. (Yes, even if we soon get powerful AIs.) As decisions markets plausibly enable such competent governance, this is why I estimate their expected impact to be so very great.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nyc
      wrote last edited by
      #2

      I recall the DoD showing interest and starting a project with him only to have it shut down by Congress after they reframed it as ‘letting people bet on terrorist attacks’. This would have been early 2000s.

      Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote last edited by
        #3

        Yes—that’s basically right, and you’re remembering one of the more infamous policy/tech blowups of the early post-9/11 period.

        What you’re thinking of: the “terrorism futures market”

        The project was called the Policy Analysis Market (PAM), part of a broader DARPA initiative called FutureMAP.

        • It was funded by Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
        • Developed in the early 2000s (planning started ~2001)
        • Intended to use prediction markets to forecast geopolitical instability, including terrorism

        Robin Hanson’s role

        • Robin Hanson was not the sole creator, but he was:
          • A key intellectual influence on prediction markets
          • An adviser/advocate involved in the project’s conceptual framing

        What the system was supposed to do

        The idea was:

        • Let participants trade contracts tied to events like:
          • Political instability
          • Regime changes
          • Terrorist attacks
        • Market prices would reflect probabilities, aggregating dispersed information

        The logic (very Hanson-esque):

        Markets aggregate information better than experts.

        ⸻

        Why it blew up

        When details became public in 2003, it was immediately reframed politically as:

        “people betting on terrorist attacks”

        And that framing stuck.

        • Senators (notably Ron Wyden and Byron Dorgan) denounced it as:
          • “grotesque” / “repugnant”
        • Critics argued it could:
          • Incentivize terrorism
          • Create “assassination markets”

        The media amplified examples like contracts on:

        • Assassinations
        • Attacks in the Middle East

        ⸻

        What happened next

        • The program was killed almost immediately—within days of public exposure
        • The DARPA official overseeing it (John Poindexter) resigned shortly after

        Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote last edited by jon-nyc
          #4

          We have a functioning version of this now with prediction markets, of course. People with inside knowledge can and do steer them towards being better predictors than individuals. The markets view the insiders as a bug but Hanson viewed them as a feature.

          Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • taiwan_girlT Online
            taiwan_girlT Online
            taiwan_girl
            wrote last edited by
            #5

            Okay, I needed a simple English summary of the article from Horace

            The author says his best idea, first shared in 1996, is called decision markets or futarchy when used in government. The idea is that markets can help people make better decisions by predicting what will happen if different choices are made. He explains that his idea combines two older ideas: first, that markets are good at collecting information from many people, and second, that information is most useful when it helps with a specific decision. He believes decision markets could improve organizations and governments because they would focus less on politics and more on which choices are most likely to achieve a goal. Although it has been hard to get groups to test this idea, he thinks it could have a very large positive impact if it works.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote last edited by
              #6

              On point, there’s a new paper saying that the accuracy of prediction markets comes from the informed insiders not the ‘wisdom of crowds’.

              Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                Doctor PhibesD Offline
                Doctor Phibes
                wrote last edited by
                #7

                Hopefully AI will get smart enough to replace transcendental geniuses.

                I was only joking

                Tom-KT 1 Reply Last reply
                • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                  Hopefully AI will get smart enough to replace transcendental geniuses.

                  Tom-KT Offline
                  Tom-KT Offline
                  Tom-K
                  wrote last edited by Tom-K
                  #8

                  @Doctor-Phibes said:

                  Hopefully AI will get smart enough to replace transcendental geniuses.

                  Actually, I think geniuses have been replaced by people with high functioning spectrum disorder already.

                  Ego similis habere bonum et non curat nunquam accipere malum.

                  1 Reply Last reply

                  Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.

                  Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.

                  With your input, this post could be even better 💗

                  Register Login
                  Reply
                  • Reply as topic
                  Log in to reply
                  • Oldest to Newest
                  • Newest to Oldest
                  • Most Votes


                  • Login

                  • Don't have an account? Register

                  • Login or register to search.
                  • First post
                    Last post
                  0
                  • Categories
                  • Recent
                  • Tags
                  • Popular
                  • Users
                  • Groups