Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 12:45 last edited by
How much free speech does a foreign student have, especially if you are protesting for a terrorist organization or are intimidating American citizens?
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:08 last edited by Mik
It's an interesting question. What rights do you have on a student visa? Do you have the right to come as a guest and oppose the host country's policies? do you have the right to speak against specific groups of people? To threaten and intimidate them?
You may have those rights, but I think a visa is a privilege, not a right. You're a guest here and any guest can wear out their welcome. behave accordingly.
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:08 last edited by
What do they consider evidence of sympathy with hamas?
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:09 last edited by
That's tricky too.
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:14 last edited by Mik
A visa can be cancelled at any time it is determined that the holder has violated the terms. I should think participating in an illegal or disruptive demonstration would qualify.
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A visa can be cancelled at any time it is determined that the holder has violated the terms. I should think participating in an illegal or disruptive demonstration would qualify.
wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:34 last edited by@Mik said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
A visa can be cancelled at any time it is determined that the holder has violated the terms. I should think participating in an illegal or disruptive demonstration would qualify.
There’s the kicker. If it’s a legally permitted protest, then I don’t think the administration has a leg to stand on unless they can point to specific harassment by the accused. If it’s an illegal gathering, then goodbye. I honestly believe they have the ability to go back and revoke the student visas from the protesters last year. It doesn’t need to be from this date forward.
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 13:47 last edited by Jolly
Even in a legally permitted protest, if you're carrying a sign reading "Death To The Zionists" or "I
HAMAS" , I think you'd be on shaky ground. -
wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 14:31 last edited by
Yeah, but there are probably three questions. Can they revoke them based on what would be protected speech for you and me? And, if they can, what rises to the bar of Hamas sympathy? And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
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Yeah, but there are probably three questions. Can they revoke them based on what would be protected speech for you and me? And, if they can, what rises to the bar of Hamas sympathy? And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 14:37 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
Consider something that's not a "rule" but criminal activity such as "occupying an office," or "obstructing traffic on a thoroughfare." Though never (almost) prosecuted, these are criminal acts. It within the statutes of limitations, I can see someone pointing to those acts as a justification.
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@jon-nyc said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
Consider something that's not a "rule" but criminal activity such as "occupying an office," or "obstructing traffic on a thoroughfare." Though never (almost) prosecuted, these are criminal acts. It within the statutes of limitations, I can see someone pointing to those acts as a justification.
wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 14:50 last edited by@George-K said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
@jon-nyc said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
Consider something that's not a "rule" but criminal activity such as "occupying an office," or "obstructing traffic on a thoroughfare." Though never (almost) prosecuted, these are criminal acts. It within the statutes of limitations, I can see someone pointing to those acts as a justification.
That’s my thinking. I don’t even think that it requires the EO. I’m confident that there are provisions within the Student Visa regarding obeying the laws of the United States. If they participated in an illegal demonstration, then they are subject to a review that may result in the revocation of the VISA. I would also suggest that holds true with those hear under amnesty provisions.
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wrote on 30 Jan 2025, 15:07 last edited by
Again, you're a guest. Behave accordingly. We don't need foreign students who will be making trouble.
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@jon-nyc said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
Consider something that's not a "rule" but criminal activity such as "occupying an office," or "obstructing traffic on a thoroughfare." Though never (almost) prosecuted, these are criminal acts. It within the statutes of limitations, I can see someone pointing to those acts as a justification.
wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 03:05 last edited by@George-K said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
@jon-nyc said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
And third, can the rule be set retroactively ?
Consider something that's not a "rule" but criminal activity such as "occupying an office," or "obstructing traffic on a thoroughfare." Though never (almost) prosecuted, these are criminal acts. It within the statutes of limitations, I can see someone pointing to those acts as a justification.
But they were illegal when the guy did them. The constitution forbids retroactive laws which is more analogous to this situation.
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wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 03:21 last edited by Mik
But it’s not, really. It’s just a change in enforcement of existing laws. All prosecutions are retroactive.
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wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 03:23 last edited by
It was t illegal to sympathize with Hamas yesterday. In fact it still isn’t.
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wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 03:49 last edited by
Perhaps not. But participation in an illegal or disruptive demonstration is, IMO, sufficient cause for revoking a visa.
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It's an interesting question. What rights do you have on a student visa? Do you have the right to come as a guest and oppose the host country's policies? do you have the right to speak against specific groups of people? To threaten and intimidate them?
You may have those rights, but I think a visa is a privilege, not a right. You're a guest here and any guest can wear out their welcome. behave accordingly.
wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 05:47 last edited by@Mik said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
You may have those rights, but I think a visa is a privilege, not a right.
A license to drive is also a privilege. How do you feel about protected speech being sufficient cause to revoke your fellow citizens' privileges to drive automobiles on public roads?
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@Mik said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
You may have those rights, but I think a visa is a privilege, not a right.
A license to drive is also a privilege. How do you feel about protected speech being sufficient cause to revoke your fellow citizens' privileges to drive automobiles on public roads?
wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 12:32 last edited by@Axtremus said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
@Mik said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
You may have those rights, but I think a visa is a privilege, not a right.
A license to drive is also a privilege. How do you feel about protected speech being sufficient cause to revoke your fellow citizens' privileges to drive automobiles on public roads?
Well, we’re specifically talking about non-citizens, in this case.
However, a case can be made that if you’re revoking student visas over illegal protests, then it should be ALL illegal protests, regardless of cause.
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wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 12:42 last edited by
Presumably colleges like bringing foreigners over here as they pay more, so while they may be guests, they're paying guests, who tend to get treated better than folk who just show up out of the blue and sleep on your sofa.
Maybe singling out foreigners isn't necessary. Just kick anybody out of college who protests illegally. That'll solve the problem right there.
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Presumably colleges like bringing foreigners over here as they pay more, so while they may be guests, they're paying guests, who tend to get treated better than folk who just show up out of the blue and sleep on your sofa.
Maybe singling out foreigners isn't necessary. Just kick anybody out of college who protests illegally. That'll solve the problem right there.
wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 12:51 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
Presumably colleges like bringing foreigners over here as they pay more, so while they may be guests, they're paying guests, who tend to get treated better than folk who just show up out of the blue and sleep on your sofa.
Maybe singling out foreigners isn't necessary. Just kick anybody out of college who protests illegally. That'll solve the problem right there.
Don't know about all colleges, but Tulane loves them.
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Presumably colleges like bringing foreigners over here as they pay more, so while they may be guests, they're paying guests, who tend to get treated better than folk who just show up out of the blue and sleep on your sofa.
Maybe singling out foreigners isn't necessary. Just kick anybody out of college who protests illegally. That'll solve the problem right there.
wrote on 31 Jan 2025, 12:55 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, this will wind up in SCOTUS:
Maybe singling out foreigners isn't necessary. Just kick anybody out of college who protests illegally. That'll solve the problem right there.
I’m fairly confident that the vast majority of people approving of the EO would also approve of your suggestion.
