The Taxman

[Horace]

I think your thesis is hand-wavy. It would help me understand if you could provide an example of a company that is a good case in point of the issues you're concerned with. And no fair claiming this is aggregate stuff rather than individual company stuff. The aggregate implies the existence of plenty of individual companies that must be doing something problematic.

[Axtremus]

@Horace said in The Taxman:

I think your thesis is hand-wavy. It would help me understand if you could provide an example of a company that is a good case in point of the issues you're concerned with. And no fair claiming this is aggregate stuff rather than individual company stuff. The aggregate implies the existence of plenty of individual companies that must be doing something problematic.

Oh sure, crying foul because you don't like the "aggregate stuff."
Taxation is a matter of public policy. It's bad public policy if it leads to negative outcomes in the aggregate.

[Horace]

No, I am pointing out that an average must contain components closer to it than not. It's a simple math thing.

[taiwan_girl]

@Jolly said in The Taxman:

@taiwan_girl said in The Taxman:

@Horace With the US stock market being going to (almost) a record, are "they" predicting a President Trump re-election or a Vice President Biden win?

It doesn't matter. Presidents have no effect on the stock market.

Be careful Jolly. Horace may have a different conclusion. LOL

[Rainman]

Why would I invest in the stock market, when I get 30-40% ROI as a small business owner by investing back in my own business?

If nothing else, it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to understand the depth of discourse in this thread.

[xenon]

@Horace said in The Taxman:

I think your thesis is hand-wavy. It would help me understand if you could provide an example of a company that is a good case in point of the issues you're concerned with. And no fair claiming this is aggregate stuff rather than individual company stuff. The aggregate implies the existence of plenty of individual companies that must be doing something problematic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/did-the-u-s-tax-overhaul-do-what-it-promised-11578114001

I’m sure I can find 100’s of anecdotes in either direction.

Here’s one from Whirlpool saying it didn’t affect their hiring or capex plans much:

“On the whole it was positive, in that it helped the broader consumer, but on the effective tax rate for us it was a lot less than you’d think,” Whirlpool Corp. Chief Executive Marc Bitzer said in an interview last month. He said the global appliance maker didn’t see a meaningful change in its taxes or boost its U.S. hiring or capital investment as a result of the law..

My point was more about graphs like this:

![alt text](@Horace said in The Taxman:

I think your thesis is hand-wavy. It would help me understand if you could provide an example of a company that is a good case in point of the issues you're concerned with. And no fair claiming this is aggregate stuff rather than individual company stuff. The aggregate implies the existence of plenty of individual companies that must be doing something problematic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/did-the-u-s-tax-overhaul-do-what-it-promised-11578114001

I’m sure I can find 100’s of anecdotes in either direction.

Here’s one from Whirlpool saying it didn’t affect their hiring or capex plans much:

“On the whole it was positive, in that it helped the broader consumer, but on the effective tax rate for us it was a lot less than you’d think,” Whirlpool Corp. Chief Executive Marc Bitzer said in an interview last month. He said the global appliance maker didn’t see a meaningful change in its taxes or boost its U.S. hiring or capital investment as a result of the law..

My point was more about graphs like this:

Or this:

Or this:

[Horace]

@xenon said in The Taxman:

“On the whole it was positive, in that it helped the broader consumer, but on the effective tax rate for us it was a lot less than you’d think,” Whirlpool Corp. Chief Executive Marc Bitzer said in an interview last month. He said the global appliance maker didn’t see a meaningful change in its taxes or boost its U.S. hiring or capital investment as a result of the law..

Well, there's the problem right there. The tax cut wasn't large enough to be meaningful. We need to cut taxes more. Problem solved.

[Horace]

I guess your point is more that businesses didn't have anything better to spend their money on than returning it to shareholders, and if that is the case, then it's a bad idea for society to cut the business tax rate. That conclusion rests on the benefit to society of corporations giving more back to shareholders, being less than the benefit to society of the additional taxes. I don't see that conclusion as a given.

(Of course, it is wildly better for me personally to have corporate tax cuts rather than higher taxes. And not because I'm special in some way. Only because I've built something financially and that nest egg is connected to the market - which is the thing given back to by corporations that make more money. I think a lot of people can say that, and they are part of this society we're all happy to claim to care about improving.)

[xenon]

@Horace said in The Taxman:

I guess your point is more that businesses didn't have anything better to spend their money on than returning it to shareholders, and if that is the case, then it's a bad idea for society to cut the business tax rate. That conclusion rests on the benefit to society of corporations giving more back to shareholders, being less than the benefit to society of the additional taxes. I don't see that conclusion as a given.

You just gotta pay your bills sometimes (the debt) - and now didn’t feel like the time to take on debt to try and juice the economy through tax cuts.

If we couldn’t pay it down now, we’re not going to pay it down until we’re forced to.

[Copper]

My recollection, from when I used to worry about things like this, is that in general I liked buy-backs. They are usually good for those involved.

Oh, and taxes are not a given that belong to the government. They are money that belongs to the company and it's owners.

Taxes are an abomination that come later.

Want to balance the budget? Stop spending.