No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals

[Doctor Phibes]

@Mik said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

That's a tricky question, but in specific cases like this I agree. I can see where some would apply, like the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. It would seem those would go along more with natural law and basic human rights rather than enumerated constitutional ones specified for the people of the USA.

Personally, I don't think an illegal alien should be able to carry a gun in the US based on the US Constitution.

However, some of the more outspoken members of the gun-rights brigade have occasionally tried to argue that gun ownership is a basic human right. I think that's bollocks, but that's what they imply. Either something is a 'right' or it isn't, right?

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

Note that the court made a distinction between legal and illegal aliens.

Personally, I think an illegal alien does not have any rights under the Constitution.

Can they be enslaved?

Can they be imprisoned indefinitely without charges or access to a lawyer?

[Mik]

And that's where it gets tricky. What are constitutional rights and what basic human rights.

[Axtremus]

Does the Constitution recognize "basic human rights," or merely the rights addressed by the Constitution?

[Doctor Phibes]

According to the non-peer-reviewed Wikipedia:

According to Human Rights: The Essential Reference, "the American Declaration of Independence was the first civic document that met a modern definition of human rights."[29] The Constitution recognizes a number of inalienable human rights, including freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, the right to keep and bear arms, freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, and the right to a fair trial by jury.

Now, it seems to me that if the right to keep and bear arms is indeed an inalienable human right, then it should apply to non-citizens.

If you don't believe this to be the case, then surely it is no longer an inalienable human right, but something else.

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

@Jolly said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

Note that the court made a distinction between legal and illegal aliens.

Personally, I think an illegal alien does not have any rights under the Constitution.

Can they be enslaved?

Can they be imprisoned indefinitely without charges or access to a lawyer?

1. Basic human right.
2. That's a good question. By definition they are guilty of charges (illegal) and subject to arrest and imprisonment. Personally, I would just deport them without benefit of attorney. But if we're done, best it were done quickly. It would be inhumane to hold them for an extended period.

[jon-nyc]

Could a state pass a law that says it’s legal to rape or kill illegal aliens?

I’m not asking if you’d support such a law, just if you think it would be constitutional?

[Jolly]

Again, life is a basic human right.

Now, if they're only a few hours old when they enter the country, we could term it abortion and several states would allow it.

[jon-nyc]

So you’d be against it. But that’s not what I asked. Would it be constitutional? If not, why not?

[Horace]

A constitutional amendment to prohibit such state laws would be a slam dunk pass, so of what value is this question? If there exists a constitutional loophole that allows states to pass laws that violate 99.9% of the citizenry's basic understanding of morality and humanity, then there exist processes to close those loopholes.

Owning guns is a "right" we already restrict certain citizens from, notably certain criminals. Nobody seems too bent out of shape about that, and it doesn't raise thought experiments about whether states might pass laws to legalize the rape or enslavement of felons.

[jon-nyc]

Jolly is perfectly capable of avoiding his own questions.

[Jolly]

Not avoiding. You just aren't getting the answer you want.

[jon-nyc]

You mean the answer to my question?

[Renauda]

I doubt very much that I, as a foreign citizen and non resident of the US, can walk into a Wal-Mart or gun shop in most, if not all, US states and jurisdictions and buy a firearm.

[Jolly]

I think you know the answer to your question.

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

Jolly is perfectly capable of avoiding his own questions.

You haven't answered the question either. And, you should know that whether something is "constitutional" is not always cut and dried. The cutting and drying occurs in arguments before the court.

As Jack Smith will attest to, one does not ask permission from the Supreme Court to do something, one just does it, and then allows SCOTUS to provide guidance about what is or is not constitutional. Any conceit you may have that your question has a definitive answer, would have to be justified.

[jon-nyc]

The question had to do with Jolly’s thoughts about what is constitutional or not, not what SCOTUS might say.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

I think you know the answer to your question.

If you don’t think the constitution doesn’t apply to them than it would follow that such laws would be constitutional. I just wanted to see if you’d say it out loud.

[Copper]

@jon-nyc said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

Can they be enslaved?

I thought that was the whole point.

[Jolly]

@Copper said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

@jon-nyc said in No 2nd Amendment Right for Illegals:

Can they be enslaved?

I thought that was the whole point.

That was his point, as Jon goes for the "gotcha".

IMO, the Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to citizens and legal immigrants. It does not apply to people in the country illegally. Now, Jon will cite precedent, but I think much of that precedent is wrong, especially since much of it was generated when the U.S. did not have millions pouring across the border. Illegal aliens are subject to immigration courts and as such, the Executive has more power in those courts than in the regular court system.

Which brings up another interesting point...The Constitution's 13th Amendment still allows for involuntary servitude or slavery as punishment for a crime. So yes, since illegals are criminals we can send them to the cane fields against their will.

So, there is the answer that Jon knew when he asked the question.