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  3. Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses"

Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses"

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  • K Klaus
    12 Aug 2024, 06:58

    Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

    I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

    J Offline
    J Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 09:29 last edited by
    #8

    @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

    Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

    I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

    Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    K 1 Reply Last reply 12 Aug 2024, 10:07
    • J Jolly
      12 Aug 2024, 09:29

      @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

      Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

      I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

      Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

      K Offline
      K Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 10:07 last edited by Klaus 8 Dec 2024, 10:14
      #9

      @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

      @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

      Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

      I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

      Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

      The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

      0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

      I found that quite interesting.

      It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

      For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.

      G L J 3 Replies Last reply 12 Aug 2024, 11:39
      • K Klaus
        12 Aug 2024, 10:07

        @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

        @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

        Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

        I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

        Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

        The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

        0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

        I found that quite interesting.

        It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

        For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.

        G Offline
        G Offline
        George K
        wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 11:39 last edited by
        #10

        @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

        It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

        Very interesting. I'm not particularly religious, if at all. Nevertheless, I find the removal of Christian symbols, whatever they might be, for fear of offending some non-Christians, problematic.

        Would anyone accommodate me if I felt "unwelcome" in a mosque?

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • K Klaus
          12 Aug 2024, 10:07

          @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

          @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

          Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

          I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

          Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

          The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

          0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

          I found that quite interesting.

          It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

          For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.

          L Offline
          L Offline
          LuFins Dad
          wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 12:21 last edited by
          #11

          @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

          @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

          @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

          Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

          I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

          Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

          The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

          0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

          I found that quite interesting.

          It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

          On the theological side, I’d suggest that it is exactly as Jolly suggested. The death and resurrection of Christ are the primary movers that the Gospel are built around.

          But if you want to go further than that, I would suggest it’s because it was a symbol that was co-opted from the occupying forces. Remember that these were days when most Jews were convinced the Messiah was going to be a military figure to push out the occupation by Rome. The crucifix was their instrument of torture and death that (and this is the important part) was displayed to the populace. These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you. The crucifix as a symbol was a giant middle finger back to Rome stating that somebody had beaten the crucifix and through His resurrection had ultimately rescued his people.

          The Brad

          G 1 Reply Last reply 12 Aug 2024, 12:27
          • L LuFins Dad
            12 Aug 2024, 12:21

            @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

            @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

            @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

            Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

            I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

            Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

            The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

            0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

            I found that quite interesting.

            It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

            On the theological side, I’d suggest that it is exactly as Jolly suggested. The death and resurrection of Christ are the primary movers that the Gospel are built around.

            But if you want to go further than that, I would suggest it’s because it was a symbol that was co-opted from the occupying forces. Remember that these were days when most Jews were convinced the Messiah was going to be a military figure to push out the occupation by Rome. The crucifix was their instrument of torture and death that (and this is the important part) was displayed to the populace. These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you. The crucifix as a symbol was a giant middle finger back to Rome stating that somebody had beaten the crucifix and through His resurrection had ultimately rescued his people.

            G Offline
            G Offline
            George K
            wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 12:27 last edited by
            #12

            @LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

            These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.

            Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            L 1 Reply Last reply 12 Aug 2024, 12:42
            • G George K
              12 Aug 2024, 12:27

              @LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

              These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.

              Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."

              L Offline
              L Offline
              LuFins Dad
              wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 12:42 last edited by
              #13

              @George-K said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

              @LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

              These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.

              Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."

              Right, so the cross was kind of a middle finger to Roman authorities.

              The Brad

              1 Reply Last reply
              • J Offline
                J Offline
                Jolly
                wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 15:46 last edited by
                #14

                Do not forget...

                alt text

                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                1 Reply Last reply
                • K Klaus
                  12 Aug 2024, 10:07

                  @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                  @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                  Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

                  I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

                  Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

                  The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

                  0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

                  I found that quite interesting.

                  It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

                  For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.

                  J Offline
                  J Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 15:58 last edited by
                  #15

                  @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                  @Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                  @Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                  Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.

                  I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.

                  Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.

                  The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:

                  0cde9af9-3fe3-463b-bbcb-9cea0cfefb25-image.png

                  I found that quite interesting.

                  It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.

                  For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.

                  See, to me the chalice would represent the Eucharist, which is a reflection of the Last Supper and the fulfillment of prophesy at Passover.

                  Out of Mathew 26...

                  26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

                  30After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • T Offline
                    T Offline
                    Tom-K
                    wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 16:51 last edited by
                    #16

                    Link to video

                    I dunno if I did this correctly but this is an interesting video (though incomplete) on the subject.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • D Offline
                      D Offline
                      Doctor Phibes
                      wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 17:25 last edited by
                      #17

                      I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.

                      I was only joking

                      D G 2 Replies Last reply 12 Aug 2024, 17:26
                      • D Doctor Phibes
                        12 Aug 2024, 17:25

                        I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.

                        D Offline
                        D Offline
                        Doctor Phibes
                        wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 17:26 last edited by
                        #18

                        @Doctor-Phibes said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                        I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.

                        fb93a5e2-6787-4457-9e43-8c54619f61e8-image.png

                        One of the few examples of religious irony.

                        I was only joking

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • D Doctor Phibes
                          12 Aug 2024, 17:25

                          I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.

                          G Offline
                          G Offline
                          George K
                          wrote on 12 Aug 2024, 19:03 last edited by
                          #19

                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":

                          I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.

                          Not the Lutheran Church Misery Synod,

                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • T Offline
                            T Offline
                            taiwan_girl
                            wrote on 13 Aug 2024, 14:42 last edited by
                            #20

                            If you are going to remove the symbols, then don't call it a church. Call it a Hall of Reflection" or "Hall of Meditation" or something like.

                            If I go into a Taoist temple, and there are crosses with Jesus and things like that, I would not call it a Taoist temple anymore.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • G George K referenced this topic on 19 Dec 2024, 15:48
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