SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
You are conceding the first two buckets while seemingly waving away the difference between them.
If you disagree with that assessment then please answer my original question:
What is the difference (in the way the courts should act according to this ruling) between the cases where the president has absolute immunity and the cases where he has only presumptive immunity?
Here is an example of its guidance for the lower courts to establish something that only needs to be established for bucket 2, the one with a "presumption of immunity": (Have you read the whole ruling, or are you just going by what you heard in podcasts?)
It is ultimately the Government’s burden to rebut the
presumption of immunity. We therefore remand to the
District Court to assess in the first instance, with appropriate
input from the parties, whether a prosecution involving
Trump’s alleged attempts to influence the Vice President’s
oversight of the certification proceeding in his capacity as
President of the Senate would pose any dangers of intrusion
on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch. -
I like the video George posted with the guys referencing Diplomatic Immunity.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
You sidestepped the question completely.
I did my best to answer it. I told you what the lower courts are supposed to do with a bucket 2 case. They need to rebut presumptive immunity, according to this ruling.
Just curious, what is your fantasy answer that you have laid a logical trap for? I am wondering what card you think you have here.
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The first bucket outlines core functions and gives the president absolute immunity. You and others keep pretending that the courts will have wiggle room there, like they do in the second bucket.
Since you (plural) believe that there is judicial wiggle room in both buckets (which I think is straight up wrong), then I’m wondering what you think the difference, if any, might be between them.
DON’T let them eat cake.
- RFK Jr -
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
The first bucket outlines core functions and gives the president absolute immunity. You and others keep pretending that the courts will have wiggle room there, like they do in the second bucket.
Since you (plural) believe that there is judicial wiggle room in both buckets (which I think is straight up wrong), then I’m wondering what you think the difference, if any, might be between them.
I guess you've misunderstood my point from the jump. The wiggle room is in which bucket an act falls in. Not in whether the first bucket has absolute immunity. All the context and details of a given case will allow the judges to exercise their judgment about bucket assignment. That’s how the seal team six scenario would be prosecutable.
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They don’t really have the wiggle room you imagine, per Roberts. He listed examples of ‘core functions’ outright which neither the courts nor congress can question.
Even between the other two buckets - what makes it official vs unofficial- the decisions limits the kind of context they can take into account. For example, the mere fact that it violates a law applicable to everyone else can’t be the determining factor. Nor can congress or the courts take motive into account.
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Actually, the courts first get to decide whether the act fits Bucket 1 or Bucket 2. The Seal Team 6 thing, for instance. It is very difficult for the President to order the military into action without Congressional approval and in the cases of emergency, notification and justification within 48 hours. There are still multiple checks and balances.
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Should the President of the US have less prosecutorial immunity than an Ambassador from Zimbabwe?
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
They don’t really have the wiggle room you imagine, per Roberts. He listed examples of ‘core functions’ outright which neither the courts nor congress can question.
Great, then start there with the histrionic hypotheticals. Got any? None of the ones Sotomayor listed in her dissent would conclusively and preclusively fall under what Roberts listed. Which, from memory, is just the discussions with justice officials, and their removal at the president's discretion. Sotomayor actually acknowledges that the majority opinion gives few examples of what is or is not first bucket.
My sense is that Roberts is content to leave specific judgments regarding bucket assignments to specific cases that have actually happened. Law by histrionic hypotheticals is probably not a great idea in general, especially as there are trade-offs when enacting law to prevent histrionic hypotheticals, and those trade-offs involve actual bad things that are actually happening (frivolous lawfare), and becoming unable to stop them.
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@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Should the President of the US have less prosecutorial immunity than an Ambassador from Zimbabwe?
Actually, the immunity of the Zimbabwean ambassador stems from the government of Zimbabwe. A more accurate question is, "Should the President of the US have less prosecutorial immunity than the Ambassador TO Zimbabwe.?"
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Dred Scott.
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@Horace I’m sorry I can’t be a stand in for Sotomayor, whom I respect as much as you do. I’m on record saying she’s tied with Alito as the most ideological justice.
But if you’re asking me for an example, go back to the one I gave in response to your original request that I opine on this ruling. It comes directly from Roberts’ list.
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@Horace said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
My sense is that Roberts is content to leave specific judgments regarding bucket assignments to specific cases that have actually happened.
That’s a poor read of the man. He’s very much an institutionalist and knows he’s setting the law of the land. He’s opinion (you read it, right?) is peppered with talk about how this needs to be forward looking and not specific to the case and the man in front of him.
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@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Should the President of the US have less prosecutorial immunity than an Ambassador from Zimbabwe?
Yes, because:
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The POTUS has a lot more power than the Ambassador from Zimbabwe, the POTUS should have a lot less prosecutorial immunity as a check against the POTUS' immense power.
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We also want our ambassadors and diplomatic staff in other nations to have a lot of prosecutorial immunity, so as a matter of reciprocity we also give the ambassadors and diplomatic staff of the other nations a lot of prosecutorial immunity here.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@Horace I’m sorry I can’t be a stand in for Sotomayor, whom I respect as much as you do. I’m on record saying she’s tied with Alito as the most ideological justice.
But if you’re asking me for an example, go back to the one I gave in response to your original request that I opine on this ruling. It comes directly from Roberts’ list.
I've already rebutted the pardons-for-sale scenario. The auction and the pardon are separable acts, with the sale being a private one, and not immune from prosecution. That's what I immediately thought upon hearing the example on Advisory Opinions, and when I read the oral arguments, it is what Roberts thinks. That example was discussed in orals.
Did you have a response to that rebuttal, now that it's been laid out before you multiple times? Or will you just continue on as if it's a clincher of an argument for your side?
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@Horace said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
My sense is that Roberts is content to leave specific judgments regarding bucket assignments to specific cases that have actually happened.
That’s a poor read of the man. He’s very much an institutionalist and knows he’s setting the law of the land. He’s opinion (you read it, right?) is peppered with talk about how this needs to be forward looking and not specific to the case and the man in front of him.
Read of the man? I was reading the ruling, not the man. I'll leave it to court afficionados like you to develop character sketches of each of the judges.
The ruling is forward looking in the sense that it allows freedom to judge which bucket an act falls in, depending on the detailed context of the act.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Can you show me where Robert’s said that? I don’t see how that’s consistent with absolute immunity. The pardon couldn’t even be used as evidence per the ruling.
JUSTICE BARRETT disagrees, arguing that in a bribery prosecution, for
instance, excluding “any mention” of the official act associated with the
bribe “would hamstring the prosecution.” Post, at 6 (opinion concurring
in part); cf. post, at 25–27 (opinion of SOTOMAYOR, J.). But of course the
prosecutor may point to the public record to show the fact that the President
performed the official act. And the prosecutor may admit evidence
of what the President allegedly demanded, received, accepted, or agreed
to receive or accept in return for being influenced in the performance of
the act. See 18 U. S. C. §201(b)(2). -
@George-K said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Bunch of lawyers talking about this for about 30 minutes.
Link to videoThere’s an interesting point about 30 minutes in that an Official (Capital O) act by the President is legal by definition, and by contrast, any blatantly illegal act must be found unofficial by any court… Kind of a twisted logic, but I kind of get it.
