SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:02 last edited by jon-nyc 7 Jun 2024, 12:03
I mentioned before this ruling handicaps prosecutions of presidents the same way the court’s interpretation of the speech and debate clause handicaps the prosecution of senators and I gave the example of Menendez.
Toward the bottom of this piece, under the heading ‘Key Text Messages for Prosecutors’, it outlines really damning evidence against Menendez that prosecutors can’t use. This is now the case for the executive branch too.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/22/menendez-corruption-trial-prosecutors-00159557
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:03 last edited by
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
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Not true. Yes you could enter into the record that the man got the ambassadorship, but any conversation about the actual granting of the ambassadorship would be inadmissible. When the chief of staff says ‘but he’s totally unqualified’ and the president says ‘he gave me a million reasons why he’d be good at the job’ you couldn’t use any of that.
It’s the sole reason Barrett wrote a concurrence rather than join the majority opinion.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:04 last edited by@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Not true. Yes you could enter into the record that the man got the ambassadorship, but any conversation about the actual granting of the ambassadorship would be inadmissible. When the chief of staff says ‘but he’s totally unqualified’ and the president says ‘he gave me a million reasons why he’d be good at the job’ you couldn’t use any of that.
It’s the sole reason Barrett wrote a concurrence rather than join the majority opinion.
So we've gone from "bribery is totally immune" to "bribery is practically unprosecutable even if it isn't totally immune", to "a minority of the justices are still worried about this, even though the author of the majority opinion specifically addressed it". And you've made this trek without ever being wrong once, that is impressive.
What you have, is an opinion, and you're welcome to it. Please feel as histrionic about it as you'd like to. But do try to keep in mind Roberts' footnote in the ruling. It speaks very directly to your concern. I mean, if you actually want to alleviate your concern. Some people enjoy their concerns, especially if it validates a certain political tribalism.
the prosecutor may admit evidence
of what the President allegedly demanded, received, accepted, or agreed
to receive or accept in return for being influenced in the performance of
the act. See 18 U. S. C. §201(b)(2). -
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:05 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It strips the ex-president of immunity, that was very clearly agreed upon in the orals, which I did or did not read, according to Jon's truth.
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It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:08 last edited by jon-nyc 7 Jun 2024, 12:08@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It brings up an interesting point. Where are the originalists when you need them? There’s none in this decision, it’s just judge made law.
The constitution goes out of its way to say the president can still be tried for crimes he was impeached for - in other words impeachment doesn’t replace the criminal justice process.
So clearly the founders didn’t think presidents were immune from prosecution.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Not true. Yes you could enter into the record that the man got the ambassadorship, but any conversation about the actual granting of the ambassadorship would be inadmissible. When the chief of staff says ‘but he’s totally unqualified’ and the president says ‘he gave me a million reasons why he’d be good at the job’ you couldn’t use any of that.
It’s the sole reason Barrett wrote a concurrence rather than join the majority opinion.
So we've gone from "bribery is totally immune" to "bribery is practically unprosecutable even if it isn't totally immune", to "a minority of the justices are still worried about this, even though the author of the majority opinion specifically addressed it". And you've made this trek without ever being wrong once, that is impressive.
What you have, is an opinion, and you're welcome to it. Please feel as histrionic about it as you'd like to. But do try to keep in mind Roberts' footnote in the ruling. It speaks very directly to your concern. I mean, if you actually want to alleviate your concern. Some people enjoy their concerns, especially if it validates a certain political tribalism.
the prosecutor may admit evidence
of what the President allegedly demanded, received, accepted, or agreed
to receive or accept in return for being influenced in the performance of
the act. See 18 U. S. C. §201(b)(2). -
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:15 last edited by
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
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@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It brings up an interesting point. Where are the originalists when you need them? There’s none in this decision, it’s just judge made law.
The constitution goes out of its way to say the president can still be tried for crimes he was impeached for - in other words impeachment doesn’t replace the criminal justice process.
So clearly the founders didn’t think presidents were immune from prosecution.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:16 last edited by@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It brings up an interesting point. Where are the originalists when you need them? There’s none in this decision, it’s just judge made law.
The constitution goes out of its way to say the president can still be tried for crimes he was impeached for - in other words impeachment doesn’t replace the criminal justice process.
So clearly the founders didn’t think presidents were immune from prosecution.
That would seem to include the current justices, since they agreed that Trump wasn’t immune from prosecution, either…
The fact that the Constitution went out of its way to state that the former officeholder can be tried for crimes he was impeached for kinda implies that there is immunity. Otherwise, it wouldn’t need to be stated.
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:18 last edited by
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is no substitute for the criminal justice system, to which the president is subject.
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Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:25 last edited by@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
This was clear from the ruling, which you either did or did not understand, according to your truth. Something about establishing that a prosecution won't interfere with the executive's freedom to exercise its powers. If that bar is met, then there is no immunity. Admissibility of context and motives will be left up to every individual case.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It brings up an interesting point. Where are the originalists when you need them? There’s none in this decision, it’s just judge made law.
The constitution goes out of its way to say the president can still be tried for crimes he was impeached for - in other words impeachment doesn’t replace the criminal justice process.
So clearly the founders didn’t think presidents were immune from prosecution.
That would seem to include the current justices, since they agreed that Trump wasn’t immune from prosecution, either…
The fact that the Constitution went out of its way to state that the former officeholder can be tried for crimes he was impeached for kinda implies that there is immunity. Otherwise, it wouldn’t need to be stated.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:38 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a pity that there aren’t other remedies, such as impeachment or having voters remove him from office…
Does impeachment and removal from office strip the office of immunity over the actions that got them impeached?
It brings up an interesting point. Where are the originalists when you need them? There’s none in this decision, it’s just judge made law.
The constitution goes out of its way to say the president can still be tried for crimes he was impeached for - in other words impeachment doesn’t replace the criminal justice process.
So clearly the founders didn’t think presidents were immune from prosecution.
That would seem to include the current justices, since they agreed that Trump wasn’t immune from prosecution, either…
The fact that the Constitution went out of its way to state that the former officeholder can be tried for crimes he was impeached for kinda implies that there is immunity. Otherwise, it wouldn’t need to be stated.
Yes, some immunity for the President's exercise of official powers has always been a thing. Otherwise, the legislative branch could make illegal via new law, stuff that the President would otherwise be allowed to do, in his constitutionally granted powers. That would break separation of powers. This ruling codified that a little bit more, but not so catastrophically as the histrionics in Sotomayor's ruling would have us believe. As for Barrett's worry about the admissibility of evidence of cartoonish bribery scenarios, Roberts specifically addressed it in the majority ruling.
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It’s a clear statement that impeachment is no substitute for the criminal justice system, to which the president is subject.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:39 last edited by@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is no substitute for the criminal justice system, to which the president is subject.
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is a requisite for the ex-President to stand trial.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
This was clear from the ruling, which you either did or did not understand, according to your truth. Something about establishing that a prosecution won't interfere with the executive's freedom to exercise its powers. If that bar is met, then there is no immunity. Admissibility of context and motives will be left up to every individual case.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:42 last edited by jon-nyc 7 Jun 2024, 12:49@Horace said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
This was clear from the ruling, which you either did or did not understand, according to your truth. Something about establishing that a prosecution won't interfere with the executive's freedom to exercise its powers. If that bar is met, then there is no immunity. Admissibility of context and motives will be left up to every individual case.
Besides being wrong (the ruling forbids considerations of motive for any public act) that doesn’t address the question.
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@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is no substitute for the criminal justice system, to which the president is subject.
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is a requisite for the ex-President to stand trial.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 12:48 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is no substitute for the criminal justice system, to which the president is subject.
It’s a clear statement that impeachment is a requisite for the ex-President to stand trial.
That’s your read? By the way this covers any executive impeachment.
“Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.”
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 13:02 last edited by
Expanding a bit...
So the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe, while driving drunk, hits a pregnant woman pushing a baby stroller with her 2 year old infant. They are both killed. Certainly not in bucket #1.
He has immunity, right?
The only solution is to declare him personna non grata and get him out of the country.
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 13:10 last edited by jon-nyc 7 Jun 2024, 13:10
That is the case with diplomatic immunity. Civilized nations have been known to waive it for egregious crimes or try the person themselves. Not sure how that’s relevant here though.
I have a friend whose father was the Italian consul in San Francisco. When my friend was in his early 20s, his car had diplomatic plates. He would park it on sidewalks, wherever. When his dad got wind of it he took the car away.
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@Horace said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
This was clear from the ruling, which you either did or did not understand, according to your truth. Something about establishing that a prosecution won't interfere with the executive's freedom to exercise its powers. If that bar is met, then there is no immunity. Admissibility of context and motives will be left up to every individual case.
Besides being wrong (the ruling forbids considerations of motive for any public act) that doesn’t address the question.
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 13:30 last edited by@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@Horace said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
Horace - is there any difference between bucket 1 (absolute immunity) and bucket two (presumptive immunity) in your mind? Can the courts probe context and motives for each as they wish? It what sense does the first bucket constrain courts in a way the second bucket wouldn’t?
This was clear from the ruling, which you either did or did not understand, according to your truth. Something about establishing that a prosecution won't interfere with the executive's freedom to exercise its powers. If that bar is met, then there is no immunity. Admissibility of context and motives will be left up to every individual case.
Besides being wrong (the ruling forbids considerations of motive for any public act) that doesn’t address the question.
All I can do is try in good faith to answer your questions. I can only guess as to the answer you’re hoping to dunk on. I tried to answer your question.
As for motive being inadmissible, if Robert’s hadn’t written that footnote in the ruling, you would be claiming that evidence from the bribery discussions was inadmissible. And yet they are. These things will be complex and detailed in every actual case.
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 16:34 last edited by
@jon-nyc @horace @George-K @LuFins-Dad et al
Interesting reading this forum thread. Lots of smart people on this board!!!
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@jon-nyc @horace @George-K @LuFins-Dad et al
Interesting reading this forum thread. Lots of smart people on this board!!!
wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 17:11 last edited by@taiwan_girl said in SCOTUS rules POTUS has limited immunity:
@jon-nyc @horace @George-K @LuFins-Dad et al
Interesting reading this forum thread. Lots of smart people on this board!!!
Thanks TG. I think the most important issue in the thread is whether I did or did not read the oral arguments transcript. Roberts didn't weigh in on this in the majority judgment, nor did he provide any guidance. The dissent ignored the issue as well. Junior justice TG, what is your ruling on this issue?
Just kidding, I have immunity, so it doesn't matter what anybody thinks.
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wrote on 6 Jul 2024, 18:14 last edited by
A whole lot of this is simply esoteric horseshit. This case would have never come before SCOTUS, except for the overreach of Jack Meoff Smith, who has a history of being an idiot prosecutor. NO President has ever been charged with like crimes and it shouldn't have happened in this case. Orange Man bad and he must be stopped, even if we have to resort to lawfare. Stopped by prosecution.
Perhaps even an illegal prosecutor in this case, yet to be determined.
No, even a cursory reading of Roberts opinion -the only one which counts, the rest is lawyer nip - calls for a common sense level of practical immunity for the President, extending all the way back to Aaron Burr and the Federalist Papers (again TG, if you haven't read them, please do so). While I am more than willing to curtail some of the assumed powers of the Imperial Presidency (undeclared wars, etc.), the President must have a modicum of immunity to act as he sees fit. The Executive is the only branch of government able to act quickly and decisively. There is a reason the Speaker of the House, the Vice-President or the Chief Justice do not possess the football and the ability to begin or respond to a thermonuclear war.
I mentioned Dred Scott above. The reason is that it was a political decision by SCOTUS. To chase the Sotomayor Silly Argument of SEALs assassinating political rivals is to introduce a heavy dose of politics into the court's decision and the majority were wise to ignore such clap-trap. Political decisions without sufficient grounding in common law decisions is simply a recipe for disaster and eventual overturning.
