Butker calls it out.

[George K]

[Jolly]

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Butker calls it out.:

I noticed nobody responded to my point about caesarian sections interfering with God's plan for who gets to live and who gets to die. An inconvenient truth?

Because your argument is specious. Since Christianity considers life as created by God, it is important to conserve and nurture it with the tools he gives us. C-sections preserve lives - those of the mother and those of the baby.

Would you argue that Catholics are not interested and do not spend large amounts of money on healthcare? That they let people die from conditions where surgical intervention leads to positive outcomes?

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in Butker calls it out.:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Butker calls it out.:

I noticed nobody responded to my point about caesarian sections interfering with God's plan for who gets to live and who gets to die. An inconvenient truth?

Because your argument is specious. Since Christianity considers life as created by God, it is important to conserve and nurture it with the tools he gives us. C-sections preserve lives - those of the mother and those of the baby.

Would you argue that Catholics are not interested and do not spend large amounts of money on healthcare? That they let people die from conditions where surgical intervention leads to positive outcomes?

I think you may have missed my point.

If life is created by God, then the baby that is born using IVF or surrogacy is also created by God. Who are we to tell people they can't do this? If you say because it's not natural, then neither is caesarian section. Obviously, the second case is bollocks, both of my children were born by c-section. So why deny people life created using other technological means? "Loss of dignity" - seriously? There was no loss of dignity in the case I knew of, and now there's a teenage boy who wouldn't be here if it wasn't for surrogacy. Any 'chaos' created by his existence is roughly equivalent to that created by any other teenage boy.

Yes, I get the fact that he's a devout Roman Catholic, but religious doctrine isn't a better reason for telling people what to do than any other doctrine if what you're telling them doesn't make sense.

[taiwan_girl]

@LuFins-Dad said in Butker calls it out.:

@taiwan_girl said in Butker calls it out.:

@Jolly said in Butker calls it out.:

How about this one:

At its core, feminism is the belief that women deserve equal social, economic, and political rights and freedoms.

I agree with that. But he was the one who said it. But if she did say, I still think its weird.

What if one of your kids said, "Before I got married. No wait, even though i was married but didnt have kids, my life was nothing."

"So, the time you spent growing up with loving parents, the wisdom they gave you, the nurturing, etc. means nothing to you?"

"Correct. My life did not begin until I was married and had kids"

Again, you are missing the word vocation.

Vocation:

1. aparticular occupation, business, or profession; calling.
   Synonyms: pursuit, employment

2. a strong impulse or inclination to follow a particular activity or career.
   a divine call to God's service or to the Christian life.

3. a function or station in life to which one is called by God:
   the religious vocation; the vocation of marriage.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/vocation

I honestly dont see what I am missing in my analysis.

He says:

I can tell you that my beautiful wife Isabelle would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as a mother.

What does that say about her life before? Maybe there is some "subtle" english language meaning I am missing.

[Mik]

No, there's nothing to miss. She values her role as wife and mother. It doesn't have to mean anything about her life up until then, just that she has found what is for her real meaning in her life.

[taiwan_girl]

@Mik It seems there is some subtle in the language. If your analysis is correct, I would have said some thing like

"My wife would be the first to say that her life became more fulfilling when she began............"

To say "that her life truly started when..............." seems to diminish what happened before.

(Again, sounds like a bit of subtle in the English language that I am missing)

[Renauda]

@taiwan_girl

I don’t think you’re missing any underlying linguistic peculiarity. The statement has the desired emotional and spiritual effect the athlete is wishing to convey to the audience. People with familiarity with Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, Church of England and those other Christian ecclesial communities would pick up on it immediately.

By itself I wouldn’t needlessly dwell on it.

[taiwan_girl]

@Renauda As usual, good points. Thanks!

[Axtremus]

Wonder if his wife agrees with what he said about her.

[Renauda]

@Axtremus

I should think so. In fact, I would be very surprised if he were not quoting her exact words and conveying her personal convictions.

[Mik]

@taiwan_girl said in Butker calls it out.:

@Renauda As usual, good points. Thanks!

So, you love him, but not me. Hmmmph.

[Jolly]

@taiwan_girl Did you listen to his speech?

[Jolly]

@Axtremus said in Butker calls it out.:

Wonder if his wife agrees with what he said about her.

Yes.

Next...

[LuFins Dad]

The IVF stuff and surrogacy issues? Sure, I can see controversy. The abortion stuff? In this context, there shouldn’t be any public outcry. He’s a Catholic, expressing Catholic Views at a Catholic School. Promoting the idea that being a stay at home mother might be a good choice for women? It’s absurd that that’s controversial. The same people upset about it applaud when a man chooses to stay at home and be a caretaker. They support a man doing it but not a woman? Isn’t that the whole point of feminism?

All of the reaction supports the primary point of his speech that nobody except @Mik is addressing, disorder.

[Renauda]

@LuFins-Dad

Disordered seems to be the preferred or desired state of being in our present times. Doesn’t matter from what ideological, religious, social or cultural background or inclination, all seem to trend towards disorder.

Seems that everyone has their own smoke to blow for whatever reason.

[LuFins Dad]

And @taiwan_girl ? I will say it flat out. The moments of my life before Lucas was born are nowhere near as important or as dear as those moments after. That’s not to diminish the earlier life, but to emphasize how different and improved my life is. Karla would agree.

Unfortunately, these days we devalue parenthood and the important roles they play. And the results are becoming more and more obvious.

[Axtremus]

@LuFins-Dad said in Butker calls it out.:

The moments of my life before Lucas was born are nowhere near as important or as dear as those moments after. That’s not to diminish the earlier life, but to emphasize how different and improved my life is. Karla would agree..

1. A bit of a strawman switheroo there, buddy; reflecting on the relative importance/preciousness of different moments of one’s life is not the same as claiming that one’s life hasn’t really started before certain moment/event.

2. If Butker said whatever he said of his own life (and even adds that his wife would agree), there would be no controversy. But no, he said of someone else’s life, he said of his wife’s life, that her life didn’t “truly start” before she begin living her vocation as a wife and as a mother.[*]

So …

• Just because you feel that your life before certain event/moment was less important/precious does not mean anyone else’s life is as well.

• Any of us, imagine saying out loud or posting in public proclaiming that “[my spouse]’s life truly started when he/she began living her/her vocation as a [spouse] and as a [parent]” … see what happens.

[*] Taking Butker’s words as is, one can also ask what happens to the lives of those who never married or never been a parent. Take Biblical Jesus, for example, Biblical Jesus basically died (and resurrected and remain) single, a virgin, and childless; has Biblical Jesus’ life never “truly started” then using Butker’s standard?

[Axtremus]

The sisters respond.

https://www.mountosb.org/ - right on the front page.

As a founding institution and sponsor of Benedictine College, the sisters of Mount St. Scholastica find it necessary to respond to the controversial remarks of Harrison Butker as commencement speaker.

Statement in Response to the 2024
Benedictine College Commencement Address

The sisters of Mount St. Scholastica do not believe that Harrison Butker’s comments in his 2024 Benedictine College commencement address represent the Catholic, Benedictine, liberal arts college that our founders envisioned and in which we have been so invested.
...

[taiwan_girl]

@Mik said in Butker calls it out.:

@taiwan_girl said in Butker calls it out.:

@Renauda As usual, good points. Thanks!

So, you love him, but not me. Hmmmph.

I love you too!! :couplekiss: