A weird thought about classical music...
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Yesterday I was listening to several staff members getting into a very serious discussion of various YouTube piano tutorials, discussing the fingering techniques, and such. They went on about it for hours, how to most accurately reproduce these pieces...
What other art does this? You don't take painting classes to learn how to reproduce Monet's Water Lillies. You don't take sculpting classes to learn to recreate Bernini's Apollo and Daphne... @Aqua-Letifer didn't spend how many thousands of dollars in learning to write to recreate Cannery Row... Even in Music, Jazz musicians will cover pieces by others, but the arrangements are distinctly different, and the very nature of improvisation makes each performance different. Oh, I hear all about how each great pianist makes their performances of _________ unique. Come on... Holding a fermata for .0004 seconds longer than another version doesn't completely reimagine a piece... Getting 6 motions in trill as opposed to 5 is not a radical departure. Classical music really comes down to just reproducing the same pieces the same way ad nauseam...
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Not a weird thought, actually a common one. An analogue to classic music performance would be Shakespearean actors or generally stage actors who perform older works. It becomes a tautological argument. If you define the art form as the performance of certain older pieces of art, then that art form can’t expand beyond that. But of course any kid who wants to learn piano probably just wants to play pop songs.
I noodled around last night playing and singing Yesterday by the Beatles. I didn’t feel like I was stretching into a new art form as compared to learning classical pieces.
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@LuFins-Dad said in A weird thought about classical music...:
Yesterday I was listening to several staff members getting into a very serious discussion of various YouTube piano tutorials, discussing the fingering techniques, and such. They went on about it for hours, how to most accurately reproduce these pieces...
What other art does this? You don't take painting classes to learn how to reproduce Monet's Water Lillies. You don't take sculpting classes to learn to recreate Bernini's Apollo and Daphne... @Aqua-Letifer didn't spend how many thousands of dollars in learning to write to recreate Cannery Row... Even in Music, Jazz musicians will cover pieces by others, but the arrangements are distinctly different, and the very nature of improvisation makes each performance different. Oh, I hear all about how each great pianist makes their performances of _________ unique. Come on... Holding a fermata for .0004 seconds longer than another version doesn't completely reimagine a piece... Getting 6 motions in trill as opposed to 5 is not a radical departure. Classical music really comes down to just reproducing the same pieces the same way ad nauseam...
There are a lot of people involved in creative pursuits that frankly shouldn't. Or more generously are severely confused.
A lot of writers think authorship means taking a trendy mad libs approach to the hero's journey and getting good marketing.
A lot of photographers think good photography is about color science and having a universal shutter on a full frame.
And a lot of musicians think technique is everything, and music is body movements over time.
They're missing the expression, which is what technique, tech and storytelling is supposed to help you do better. Which sadly a lot of people don't understand.
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I suspect most people who perform classical music have at one time or another played a piece completely differently from "what the composer intended" with personally satisfying results. If they were to perform the work for others, it might very well be received with acclaim with the exception of the musically informed who would decry it's "distortions." Still these sins against orthodoxy - done behind closed doors - are to be savored.
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It would depend on how the performance was advertised. YouTube is replete with “jazzed up” classical pieces done for fun and exactly zero people take issue with it. But if someone paid to hear a performance of Beethoven and got an improvised performance using kazoos in place of orchestral instruments, they might have reason to be upset.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@LuFins-Dad said in A weird thought about classical music...:
Yesterday I was listening to several staff members getting into a very serious discussion of various YouTube piano tutorials, discussing the fingering techniques, and such. They went on about it for hours, how to most accurately reproduce these pieces...
What other art does this? You don't take painting classes to learn how to reproduce Monet's Water Lillies. You don't take sculpting classes to learn to recreate Bernini's Apollo and Daphne... @Aqua-Letifer didn't spend how many thousands of dollars in learning to write to recreate Cannery Row... Even in Music, Jazz musicians will cover pieces by others, but the arrangements are distinctly different, and the very nature of improvisation makes each performance different. Oh, I hear all about how each great pianist makes their performances of _________ unique. Come on... Holding a fermata for .0004 seconds longer than another version doesn't completely reimagine a piece... Getting 6 motions in trill as opposed to 5 is not a radical departure. Classical music really comes down to just reproducing the same pieces the same way ad nauseam...
There are a lot of people involved in creative pursuits that frankly shouldn't. Or more generously are severely confused.
A lot of writers think authorship means taking a trendy mad libs approach to the hero's journey and getting good marketing.
A lot of photographers think good photography is about color science and having a universal shutter on a full frame.
And a lot of musicians think technique is everything, and music is body movements over time.
They're missing the expression, which is what technique, tech and storytelling is supposed to help you do better. Which sadly a lot of people don't understand.
There are books written by trained classical pianists and pedagogs going into great depth about the connection between bodily movements and expression, I.e what the audience hears. These straw men probably don’t hold up to the reality of how top performance artists, even those who play old works mostly because they’re most marketable, approach their art.
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@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
It would depend on how the performance was advertised.
I’m speaking more to a slower or faster tempo. Richter did this a bit and got away with it. Jazz is changing notes and often syncopation.
I like playing a piece by Isaac Albeniz a bit slower than what is typically heard. I think it captures the beauty and soul of the piece better. Listening to recordings from classical artists in the early 1900s, we hear them playing faster than most modern musicians. I don’t think audiences get to appreciate the beauty that is there to be experienced at some of those faster speeds.
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Much of what is now considered classic jazz was recorded in a way that ensured that no copyright was due to the original composer. This is America, after all, and what higher goal is there?
They took the original chord changes, and then wrote a new tune over the top. It's also funny that while lots of people tried to stylistically copy, say, Charlie Parker or Miles Davis, it would generally not be considered a compliment if you were said to be indistinguishable from them.I don't really understand the classical obsession with playing things 'correctly'. It's fine to want to speak the language of an art-form, but we shouldn't expect everybody to speak it with the same accent.
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I am sure every teacher is different, but I suspect one could walk a good long ways through this life without encountering anybody who would frown at a musically coherent performance of any given classical piece that happened to add some non-indicated rubato or changed an ornament. And there are literally no teachers or even reasonable people who know anything about classical music who believe that a performance is 100% dictated by the score, and therefore each performance approximates perfection in an objectively measurable way. We shouldn't confuse some ideas thrown out there for the sake of discussion in this thread, with widely held dogma.
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@LuFins-Dad said in A weird thought about classical music...:
… how to most accurately reproduce these pieces...
What other art does this? You don't take painting classes to learn how to reproduce Monet's Water Lillies. You don't take sculpting classes to learn to recreate Bernini's Apollo and Daphne... Classical music really comes down to just reproducing the same pieces the same way ad nauseam...
I talked about this years ago, and call the classical concert artists “cover artists.”
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And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
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@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Just to be clear, I think a lot of great self-expression can come from playing classical music. I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
"He played all of the notes and none of the music."
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@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Just to be clear, I think a lot of great self-expression can come from playing classical music. I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
Technical accuracy in a piece is a very low bar. There aren't really that many markings on the score that one has to adhere to in order to achieve something defensible as "accurate". I am surprised this idea that classical performances are judged by technical accuracy, is being taken seriously here. It's a ridiculous notion.
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@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Just to be clear, I think a lot of great self-expression can come from playing classical music. I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
Technical accuracy in a piece is a very low bar. There aren't really that many markings on the score that one has to adhere to in order to achieve something defensible as "accurate". I am surprised this idea that classical performances are judged by technical accuracy, is being taken seriously here. It's a ridiculous notion.
Yet plenty of people go in for it.
Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Just to be clear, I think a lot of great self-expression can come from playing classical music. I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
Technical accuracy in a piece is a very low bar. There aren't really that many markings on the score that one has to adhere to in order to achieve something defensible as "accurate". I am surprised this idea that classical performances are judged by technical accuracy, is being taken seriously here. It's a ridiculous notion.
Yet plenty of people go in for it.
I guess I might accept that perspective from someone who's never seriously pursued a musical instrument. One encounters "music" and "expression" very early after learning their first piece, and realizing it could be played more musically, if not more accurately. Accuracy would be metronomic, in fact, and anti-musical. Which, nobody plays. So I don't see how this is a common perspective.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Just to be clear, I think a lot of great self-expression can come from playing classical music. I just don't think the entire worth of a performance should be measured by technical accuracy.
Technical accuracy in a piece is a very low bar. There aren't really that many markings on the score that one has to adhere to in order to achieve something defensible as "accurate". I am surprised this idea that classical performances are judged by technical accuracy, is being taken seriously here. It's a ridiculous notion.
Yet plenty of people go in for it.
I guess I might accept that perspective from someone who's never seriously pursued a musical instrument. One encounters "music" and "expression" very early after learning their first piece, and realizing it could be played more musically, if not more accurately. Accuracy would be metronomic, in fact, and anti-musical. Which, nobody plays. So I don't see how this is a common perspective.
I dunno exactly how common, but few people seriously pursue a musical instrument.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
And opera singers are cover artists, and ballet dancers are cover artists, etc. If anybody wants to tamp down the respect people have for those who choose to learn an instrument and play classical compositions as well as they can, they are free to use their words to frame that activity as dismissively as they can. Meanwhile, the performers will continue to create some art in the moment, which maybe they and others will enjoy and find value in.
Yeah, describing classical musicians as mere technicians is silly, clearly there's a heck of a lot more going on.
In my experience the level of technical expertise required for a professional career in classical or orchestral music is a lot higher than in pop music. I know people who've gone into both areas, and there's really no comparison. And possibly that's why people who play pop music have a tendency to dismiss classical musicians as non-artistic, which is really ignorant.
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@George-K said in A weird thought about classical music...:
@Horace said in A weird thought about classical music...:
There aren't really that many markings on the score that one has to adhere to in order to achieve something defensible as "accurate".
Unless you're playing Mahler, I'm told.
I have been told similar about 20th century music in general. One of my piano teachers who was an accomplished local concert pianist herself, told me that one of the difficulties in learning 20 century repertoire is that much of it doesn’t even sound like music until it can be played near or at speed so that the phrasing can be coherently articulated. That alone puts much of it beyond the reach of only the most doggedly determined (and talented) students.
I agree with what you, Kluurs, Horace and Aqua have written here on this subject. Some weeks back you posted two videos featuring the Liszt scholar, Alan Walker. I was taken very much by his presentation on Liszt as teacher and pedagogue. It was clear from the words of Liszt’s students that the maestro himself was interested in them playing the music the notation described, not the notation itself. I am of the opinion that if we could turn the clock back and actually listen to how Liszt played, he was more akin to a Horowitz, Cziffra or even Earl Wild than a Wilhelm Kempf or Alfred Brendel. I think pianists like Argerich, Katsaris and a few others have done a good job during their careers of returning classical music to its more individualistic roots. Owing to them the current young generation of pianists like Buniatishvili, Wang, Trifonov and Chamayou to name a few are putting a fresh sound back into the classics.
