I think I just tanked an interview
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TG's suggestion might be easier for them to swallow since it eaves them in some control rather than just handing it to you.
But as far as the C level's questions, they do not lend themselves to a pat answer. Who is the audience? What is their technical and educational level? What exactly about the technical detail do they need to walk away with? Do they just need to grasp it a little or in depth?
Dumb question leading me to the conclusion that she does not understand it either.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Time for line in the sand? Make it clear that you will determine when it' safe to return to the office setting. Get it in writing as part of the job offer, or they might conveniently forget.
When did I get so cynical?
That would be a way to frame it. Especially since I know absolutely nothing about the building, who they share it with, etc.
ANy other way to frame it?
Make it clear you have health history that indicates you need to be especially cautious during the pandemic, and working remotely is a necessity for you now and into the future.
As the medical community comes to a better understanding of the virus transmission, the criteria for safely opening an office continues to change. You will be following the advice of the medical community. (The company doesn't get to declare what's safe, the medical community is still determining that criteria.)
Cite the current situation of no vaccine, poor social distancing that they will be outside their control, cases continuing to grow in many regions, etc.
Cite the technology you have available and are adept at using, which is a key reason to hire you, and makes it a wise decision for them to retain during a time when those skills are key to keeping a business open.
Cite the uncertainty that the pandemic situation will be any better for a very long time, and the need for staff who are able to make the commitment to successful and productive telecommuting, as you are.
Cite the cost savings to them for not using any of the typical space, office amenities, parking space, etc.. (If you think humor is appropriate here, let them know you will be providing your own toilet paper, hand towels, and coffee! )Other folks here can add to the list, but this is a start for you to consider.
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@Mik said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Dumb question leading me to the conclusion that she does not understand it either.
She doesn't. She was a pushy dumb person. So, I let her be a pushy dumb person for awhile because I knew her vote would count the least. She's only been there 2 months.
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@taiwan_girl said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@Aqua-Letifer Is there someway you could ask them for a year period to work from home and see how that does? If is satisfaction from both sides, you can continue to operate from home.
Yes, if you want to have them review it in a year to verify that you have met their expectations, that is an option. However, if you wish to work remotely for longer than that, you may only be kicking the can down the road a year.
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Other folks here can add to the list, but this is a start for you to consider.
Think it's cool to back up my position in this way? Have you seen that before? A lot of your suggestions would be absolute go-tos for me, but I also suck at this kind of thing and so don't know how to navigate it properly.
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@taiwan_girl said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@Aqua-Letifer Is there someway you could ask them for a year period to work from home and see how that does? If is satisfaction from both sides, you can continue to operate from home.
Yes, if you want to have them review it in a year to verify that you have met their expectations, that is an option. However, if you wish to work remotely for longer than that, you may only be kicking the can down the road a year.
A year would be more than fine. Outside of this particular situation, think that's reasonable in general? I mean really, there's zero reason to be physically anywhere for this position.
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Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in I think I just tanked an interview:
How much money are they offering?
The most I've ever been offered. Which is also funny because I honestly don't care. If I can pay my bills, what comes next is how miserable a place is.
Should I cite reasonable accommodation?
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@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Other folks here can add to the list, but this is a start for you to consider.
Think it's cool to back up my position in this way? Have you seen that before? A lot of your suggestions would be absolute go-tos for me, but I also suck at this kind of thing and so don't know how to navigate it properly.
Anything you wish to have in the package needs to be on the table now. Making the case for why it's in the package lets them know you have reason to stick to your position. Pick and choose if any of the suggestions I posted are important to you and represent your situation. You may have other things to add, or get additional ideas from other people here.
My main point is that your bargaining time is now. They are interested enough to put an offer on the table, and it's fine to come back with amendments to the offer. Ask for whatever you need or want now in the process, and get it in writing. People come and go at all levels, and if you have a new 'boss' on the scene later, you will appreciate the written record of your agreement.
Of course, they can still opt to ignore it. However, if it's related to workplace safety/telecommuting, there are now more options for the employee to get backing from legal sources. Maybe that's state-by-state, but here in my state, you can report an employer that requires working in an environment that does not meet the protocols for safety during the pandemic. Here, the employee has much more power to determine when it's safe to return to the in-office setting. When working remotely is an option for a position, then the employee can continue to work remotely until the office setting offers the safety the employee needs.
If you can find out the current legal support for employees in your state, that could be to your benefit in this negotiation process.
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@brenda we have something similar here, and inspections have been made. Unclear on that helps me in negotiating, though? To me bringing that up would sound maybe threatening?
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Other folks here can add to the list, but this is a start for you to consider.
Think it's cool to back up my position in this way? Have you seen that before? A lot of your suggestions would be absolute go-tos for me, but I also suck at this kind of thing and so don't know how to navigate it properly.
Anything you wish to have in the package needs to be on the table now. Making the case for why it's in the package lets them know you have reason to stick to your position. Pick and choose if any of the suggestions I posted are important to you and represent your situation. You may have other things to add, or get additional ideas from other people here.
My main point is that your bargaining time is now. They are interested enough to put an offer on the table, and it's fine to come back with amendments to the offer. Ask for whatever you need or want now in the process, and get it in writing. People come and go at all levels, and if you have a new 'boss' on the scene later, you will appreciate the written record of your agreement.
Of course, they can still opt to ignore it. However, if it's related to workplace safety/telecommuting, there are now more options for the employee to get backing from legal sources. Maybe that's state-by-state, but here in my state, you can report an employer that requires working in an environment that does not meet the protocols for safety during the pandemic. Here, the employee has much more power to determine when it's safe to return to the in-office setting. When working remotely is an option for a position, then the employee can continue to work remotely until the office setting offers the safety the employee needs.
If you can find out the current legal support for employees in your state, that could be to your benefit in this negotiation process.
Yep. Now is the time. Once you are employed they will not be very flexible.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda we have something similar here, and inspections have been made. Unclear on that helps me in negotiating, though? To me bringing that up would sound maybe threatening?
That part is meant as background for you on why you can hold your position on working from home. You don't need to bring up the state position on employee safety, because that's a given. If they haven't kept up with the state rules and requirements, that's on them. I should have made that more clear in my prior email.
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda we have something similar here, and inspections have been made. Unclear on that helps me in negotiating, though? To me bringing that up would sound maybe threatening?
That part is meant as background for you on why you can hold your position on working from home. You don't need to bring up the state position on employee safety, because that's a given. If they haven't kept up with the state rules and requirements, that's on them. I should have made that more clear in my prior email.
Ahhh, gotcha. Well it's interesting here. There are guidelines, but it's completely on the honor system—the only time a place gets inspected is when there's a complaint made and it's made to the right people in state government. In other words it's extremely easy to get away with doing little to nothing.
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@Aqua-Letifer said in I think I just tanked an interview:
@brenda we have something similar here, and inspections have been made. Unclear on that helps me in negotiating, though? To me bringing that up would sound maybe threatening?
That part is meant as background for you on why you can hold your position on working from home. You don't need to bring up the state position on employee safety, because that's a given. If they haven't kept up with the state rules and requirements, that's on them. I should have made that more clear in my prior email.
Edit to add:
However, if the firm intends to dictate that employees must return to the office now, and the facility doesn't meet the safety requirements you need, or that the state health officials recommend, then you may want to remind them of the necessary protocols and the need for employees to have the option to continue to work remotely. It may also be an indicator of their corporate culture, something that you would find difficult to live with over time.
You could also cite their current willingness to have employees at various levels work remotely, praise them for being accommodating and flexible, and tell them how important that is for you, too. Make it really uncomfortable for them to have a double standard. I bet you could find ways to phrase that very creatively.
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@Aqua-Letifer , I don’t know how big this prospective employer of yours is, but I doubt they will write any of your special provisions about “working from home” into your employment paperwork. I am guessing it will be a standard “at will” employment offer, with all the “work from home” stuff left unwritten in the formal paperwork. With this COVID-19 situation changing rapidly from week to week, I doubt any lawyer will write any concrete “return to office” schedule or conditions into any employment agreement beyond boilerplate languages absolving the employer of COVID-19 responsibilities as much as possible.
Right now, you can make a general statement like “I won’t go into the office unless I feel reasonably safe to do so” ... but that will be a throw-away statement because who in their right mind would go into the anywhere every day if they do not feel safe going there?
You “work from home” to start, that’s your starting point. You know you are not going to go into the office for any reason (not for orientation, not for training, not for equipment pickup) in the near term (may be the next few weeks or the next month of two), let them know that’s your deal — they can tell you whether they still want to hire you after you tell them your deal. That lets both parties be up-front about a sticky point, and I think that’s fair.
Beyond that, about when and under what conditions they re-open their office and “require” you to go into the office, I don’t see that as anything that can be prescribed and written into an employment paperwork. So that’s the part where you, and they, just have to take it on faith and play by ear until they officially re-open their office — even then your direct manager may still let you work from home, or not — then you can tell them whether you will be willing to go into the office physically based on what you know at that time, and the decision on whether to continue your employment can be made from there (your employment is “at will” after all).
Good luck, I hope things work out for you.
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Aqua, what are the criteria that you would feel comfortable with for working in the office? We first need to establish that to see if your standards and theirs are completely incompatible.
Me/rry/Christmas
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@LuFins-Dad said in I think I just tanked an interview:
Aqua, what are the criteria that you would feel comfortable with for working in the office? We first need to establish that to see if your standards and theirs are completely incompatible.
None. None whatsoever. Nevermind looking into the matter pro-actively, I have people on photography subreddits complaining about being forced back into their offices in the DC area. On freaking LinkedIn, I hear story after story from people whose employers are doing absolutely nothing to protect them. And with this business in particular, they were flabbergasted when I told them my boss tested positive. They were honestly surprised, because for them, my boss is the closest degree of separation they've come to having to deal with this. They live in the boonies and it's not at all real to them.
And then you have THIS kind of bullshit.
No, I'm not going in anywhere until there's a vaccine, period. It'd be different if I could trust people, but even here on TNCR there's a ton of insanity about the evil of masks and other basic public safety measures.
So right now I'm thinking I'm going to give them TG and Mik's suggestion, backed by brenda's reasoning.
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Holy cow, yeah, having your boss test positive is too darn close. Working in the same office area and having meetings in the same room would be a tremendous risk for someone with lung issues already.
At least your position is clear and succinct. Remote work until a vaccine is available to you. They should be able to grasp that. Their flexibility is going to be tested, and they really should expect that given the current circumstances and news reports.
As for whether this gets written into a contract, if it is, good. If not, it can still be documented in your employee file, with signatures from the firm's representatives, and with a signed copy given directly to you for your own file and safekeeping. Whether they will honor it is hard to know, but that document would make it more difficult in some ways for them. They may refuse to have any documentation, but you can ask for it. If you don't ask, then you know for certain there won't be any offered.
The relative positions of power for employee and employer swing back and forth over the years like a pendulum. They swing almost as much as Jon's sister on her stripper pole. Right now there is a bit of a swing toward protecting workers. It's not complete, as your link above demonstrates, but there are also many cases not in the news of employers being flexible on this issue. Good news often doesn't make the news.
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@brenda said in I think I just tanked an interview:
The relative positions of power for employee and employer swing back and forth over the years like a pendulum. They swing almost as much as Jon's sister on her stripper pole.
Brenda you crack me up.
I incorporated a little bit of everything mentioned here into my response--thanks a ton everybody for chiming in. I think the email I sent was nice, reasonable, and definitely calls out their ridiculous double standard in a way that seems pleasant. That part took some doing, but when they say no dice, they're going to either sound cold or stupid.
Would be more than willing to share the eventual correspondence with anyone over email if they're interested! I can only imagine what the reply's going to be.
(I feel bad, though. The HR lady was really pulling for me, and she's the one I had to send my response to.)
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Sounds like it comes down the fact they want the job to ultimately be office based.
I think it’s reasonable to have them ask you to come to the office once to pick up hardware. I wouldn’t hire you if you wouldn’t even do that because I would think ever getting you in the office for an office job would be a struggle.
It may be ridiculous that this is an office job but it’s their prerogative.
Obviously this is nothing against you. I just think the two of you are too far apart on a fundamental issue. You could deflect by going to get your equipment but you have your valid reasons for not wanting to.
