To Be A Coward

[LuFins Dad]

That’s a dude, right?

[George K]

The judge has dropped count #1 (the more serious charge) and sent the jury back to deliberate on count #2 (some kind of "negligent homicide" thing). I'd guess there are one or two holdouts in the jury who want to convict the white man of something...anything.

[LuFins Dad]

@George-K said in To Be A Coward:

The judge has dropped count #1 (the more serious charge) and sent the jury back to deliberate on count #2 (some kind of "negligent homicide" thing). I'd guess there are one or two holdouts in the jury who want to convict the white man of something...anything.

Could be the opposite? Most jurors were going to convict and 1-2 refused?

[LuFins Dad]

Did the judge formally dismiss the count?

[George K]

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

Could be the opposite? Most jurors were going to convict and 1-2 refused?

OF course.

[LuFins Dad]

I used to think there were prosecutorial standards that prevented multiple charges for the same crime. Like you couldn’t charge manslaughter while also charging murder 1. You picked the most likely conviction charge and went with that. Ancillary charges were allowed of course. Firearm escalators, coverups, and such…

[Horace]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/us/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-trial-verdict/index.html

Neely, a 30-year-old street artist who struggled with homelessness, mental illness and drugs, had entered a New York City subway car on May 1, 2023, and began acting erratically. He threw down his jacket and yelled at passengers that he was hungry and thirsty and didn’t care whether he died, witnesses said.

The spin there is just magnificent. Imagine how ignorant and manipulable that journalist thinks her audience is. (I assume this journalist is a she.)

[George K]

"The judge overseeing the trial of Daniel Penny, the man accused of using a deadly chokehold on Jordan Neely last year on a New York City subway, dismissed a manslaughter charge in the case Friday after jurors said they were deadlocked.

The decision, which came at the request of prosecutors, means jurors will consider only the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. It carries a maximum sentence of up to four years. Jurors were not told that prosecutors made the request. Penny has pleaded not guilty.

The jurors — seven women and five men — will resume deliberations Monday. They twice sent a note to the judge Friday — one in the morning and another in the afternoon — saying they could not come to a unanimous decision on the top charge of manslaughter in the second degree. After the first note, Judge Maxwell Wiley ordered them to continue deliberating."

[Horace]

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

I used to think there were prosecutorial standards that prevented multiple charges for the same crime. Like you couldn’t charge manslaughter while also charging murder 1. You picked the most likely conviction charge and went with that. Ancillary charges were allowed of course. Firearm escalators, coverups, and such…

It's surprising how many legal questions are still open to question, without precedent. In this case, apparently the prosecutor petitioning the judge to drop the most serious charge was novel and without precedent. That leads me to believe the multiple charges thing is also rare. That must be why there is so little precedent around it.

Shortly before the judge’s ruling, lead prosecutor Dafna Yoran had indicated her office would drop the second-degree manslaughter charge if the jury could move on to consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.

Defense attorney Thomas Kenniff objected to the motion, telling the judge he was unaware of any legal precedent for the prosecution’s proposal and called it “novel.”

[Horace]

@George-K said in To Be A Coward:

"The judge overseeing the trial of Daniel Penny, the man accused of using a deadly chokehold on Jordan Neely last year on a New York City subway, dismissed a manslaughter charge in the case Friday after jurors said they were deadlocked.

The decision, which came at the request of prosecutors, means jurors will consider only the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. It carries a maximum sentence of up to four years. Jurors were not told that prosecutors made the request. Penny has pleaded not guilty.

The jurors — seven women and five men — will resume deliberations Monday. They twice sent a note to the judge Friday — one in the morning and another in the afternoon — saying they could not come to a unanimous decision on the top charge of manslaughter in the second degree. After the first note, Judge Maxwell Wiley ordered them to continue deliberating."

I hope one of the 12 is a sane person who somehow managed to squeak through jury selection.

[LuFins Dad]

@Horace said in To Be A Coward:

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

I used to think there were prosecutorial standards that prevented multiple charges for the same crime. Like you couldn’t charge manslaughter while also charging murder 1. You picked the most likely conviction charge and went with that. Ancillary charges were allowed of course. Firearm escalators, coverups, and such…

It's surprising how many legal questions are still open to question, without precedent. In this case, apparently the prosecutor petitioning the judge to drop the most serious charge was novel and without precedent. That leads me to believe the multiple charges thing is also rare. That must be why there is so little precedent around it.

Shortly before the judge’s ruling, lead prosecutor Dafna Yoran had indicated her office would drop the second-degree manslaughter charge if the jury could move on to consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.

Defense attorney Thomas Kenniff objected to the motion, telling the judge he was unaware of any legal precedent for the prosecution’s proposal and called it “novel.”

It would seem to me that having multiple charges could lead to compromises that shouldn’t really happen when weighing individual charges.

[George K]

@Horace said in To Be A Coward:

That leads me to believe the multiple charges thing is also rare.

No, that's quite common.

The Karen Read trial which I've been following had three counts:

1. Second degree murder by hitting someone with a car.
2. Negligent homicide while DUI
3. Leaving the scene of an accident.

Jury was hung, and trial rescheduled for Jan (or April).

[George K]

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

It would seem to me that having multiple charges could lead to compromises that shouldn’t really happen when weighing individual charges.

Though I agree, in principle, I can see someone saying "Well, he didn't murder him (which is a deliberate act) but he caused his death by being negligent."

[Horace]

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

@Horace said in To Be A Coward:

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

I used to think there were prosecutorial standards that prevented multiple charges for the same crime. Like you couldn’t charge manslaughter while also charging murder 1. You picked the most likely conviction charge and went with that. Ancillary charges were allowed of course. Firearm escalators, coverups, and such…

It's surprising how many legal questions are still open to question, without precedent. In this case, apparently the prosecutor petitioning the judge to drop the most serious charge was novel and without precedent. That leads me to believe the multiple charges thing is also rare. That must be why there is so little precedent around it.

Shortly before the judge’s ruling, lead prosecutor Dafna Yoran had indicated her office would drop the second-degree manslaughter charge if the jury could move on to consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.

Defense attorney Thomas Kenniff objected to the motion, telling the judge he was unaware of any legal precedent for the prosecution’s proposal and called it “novel.”

It would seem to me that having multiple charges could lead to compromises that shouldn’t really happen when weighing individual charges.

Could see it both ways. Multiple charges could increase the severity of a jury's decision in some cases, and it could reduce severity in others. Unequivocally it will increase the prosecutor's conviction rate, overall. It will never turn a conviction on a single-charge, into a non-conviction for a double-charge.

[LuFins Dad]

@George-K said in To Be A Coward:

@LuFins-Dad said in To Be A Coward:

It would seem to me that having multiple charges could lead to compromises that shouldn’t really happen when weighing individual charges.

Though I agree, in principle, I can see someone saying "Well, he didn't murder him (which is a deliberate act) but he caused his death by being negligent."

Then prosecute the negligent homicide charge. Offering up a second charge implies that they felt the first charge was more difficult to prove. Frankly, it’s an admission of innocence on the prosecution’s part.

[Jolly]

Bluntly?

It stinks.

[Horace]

It makes no sense for the jury to say they're deadlocked, but for them to not be deadlocked on the lesser charge. Maybe the jury room is of the room temperature IQ variety, but if it's not, they would have already deliberated on the lesser charge, after realizing they were deadlocked on the more severe one. A reasonable jury would not have gone to the judge to tell him they were deadlocked, unless they'd establish a deadlock on all potential charges. This dismissal is like the judge telling the jurors that he thinks they may be idiots, and if so, go back and do some more thinking.

[George K]

@Horace said in To Be A Coward:

It makes no sense for the jury to say they're deadlocked, but for them to not be deadlocked on the lesser charge.

It's all dependent on the jury instructions given by the judge. In the Karen Read case, the instructions said, "Don't return a verdict until you agree on ALL three counts." They were deadlocked on #2, but according to a couple of jurors, they were unanimous on #1 and #3 - not guilty. Since they followed the judge's instructions, they returned no verdict, and the mistrial was declared.

I believe the jury instructions in this case were similarly confusing.

ETA: Some say that jury instructions are the most important part of a trial - what the jury can consider, what to ignore, and how each charge is handled is a huge deal, and the cause of lots of appeals.

[Horace]

@George-K said in To Be A Coward:

@Horace said in To Be A Coward:

It makes no sense for the jury to say they're deadlocked, but for them to not be deadlocked on the lesser charge.

It's all dependent on the jury instructions given by the judge. In the Karen Read case, the instructions said, "Don't return a verdict until you agree on ALL three counts." They were deadlocked on #2, but according to a couple of jurors, they were unanimous on #1 and #3 - not guilty. Since they followed the judge's instructions, they returned no verdict, and the mistrial was declared.

I believe the jury instructions in this case were similarly confusing.

In this case, the judge told the jury that they could not convict on both charges. So, the opposite of the instructions for the Reade case. I took that to mean that they only had to return one decision, for one charge of their choosing. But if they still have to return decisions for both charges, that's a new wrinkle.

[Horace]

It doesn't make much sense for the jury to be bound to return decisions on both counts, but be unable to return two convictions. Would they have been bound to return an "innocent" verdict on the lesser charge, if they wanted to convict on the more severe one? That would be a perversion of the system. I know things might be perverse, but the only way the multiple charge thing makes sense, is for the jury to be obligated to return only one decision on a charge of their choosing.