As A Nation, We're Screwed.
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Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Catseye3 said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Take a breath. It's one poll.
The "it's one <x>" dismissal of evidence works if x is an individual thing, such as an act or opinion of an individual person. But if x is designed to be a representative aggregate, such as this poll, dismissing it as "only one thing", is really a claim that the poll is either dishonest, or implemented badly.
On a related note, this claim that any given poll is dishonest or badly implemented is now an entrenched leftist debate tactic. Any presentation of any data leading to a conservative conclusion or even a demonstration that people have conservative opinions, is dismissed immediately by leftists, because polls are just too suspect. They'll go ahead and use their own data, thank you very much. Data which often rests on a claim of 'lived experience', or 'direct conversations with people with certain lived experiences'. I saw this play out last week in a debate which included a BLM founder and a black Democrat congressman. The other side of the debate included widely published author and researcher Ruy Texiera, who was not given credibility or trust by the leftist voices in the discussion, to present any data whatsoever.
This is where the cultural/political conversation is going, at the highest levels.
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Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
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Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
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@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
Please love yourself.
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When I was a teenager I remember my girlfriend's great uncle being scandalized that we were going to go to a jazz club 'On the Sabbath'.
Times change.
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@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
There are times when I want to hit you over the head with Homie the Clown's rubber baton. But this one you have knocked out of the park. It is so refreshing to come across commentary on the many wonderfully different legitimate ways people can think and act and do. For many reasons, I needed to see these words. Thanks.
I vote against excommunication.
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
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@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
I was only joking
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
There are times when I want to hit you over the head with Homie the Clown's rubber baton. But this one you have knocked out of the park. It is so refreshing to come across commentary on the many wonderfully different legitimate ways people can think and act and do. For many reasons, I needed to see these words. Thanks.
I vote against excommunication.
@Catseye3 said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
There are times when I want to hit you over the head with Homie the Clown's rubber baton. But this one you have knocked out of the park. It is so refreshing to come across commentary on the many wonderfully different legitimate ways people can think and act and do. For many reasons, I needed to see these words. Thanks.
I vote against excommunication.
Oh, I'm not saying modern religious practices are good! Quite the contrary, some of them are very dangerous. But I think we should call them what they are.
Please love yourself.
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@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
The religious aspect of leftism and its oppression narratives, has been well described and largely agreed upon by anybody I would consider to be a serious thinker about anything having to do with current western culture. But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious. Definitionaly they are the antithesis of religion. If a religion were purely based on science and reason, then it would be called science and reason.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
Please love yourself.
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@Catseye3 said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
There are times when I want to hit you over the head with Homie the Clown's rubber baton. But this one you have knocked out of the park. It is so refreshing to come across commentary on the many wonderfully different legitimate ways people can think and act and do. For many reasons, I needed to see these words. Thanks.
I vote against excommunication.
Oh, I'm not saying modern religious practices are good! Quite the contrary, some of them are very dangerous. But I think we should call them what they are.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Oh, I'm not saying modern religious practices are good!
I wasn't putting the imprimatur on that, or anything else. I just believe there are many more than one way to skin a cat, you should pardon the expression. Whether good or bad, or fitting for any one individual, is a different discussion -- humans being what they are.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
I think you're stretching the definition of religion too far with that. Not only do most people following the behaviour pattern not believe that is religion, most people involved in traditional religion would agree that it isn't.
You might be better saying that the behaviour is pack-animal related, and religion can be lumped in there, too, along with following sports, music and any number of other behaviour patterns. But nobody would describe being a country music fan as the same as being a sports fan, even though the two mindsets will contain some of the same behavioural characteristics.
I was only joking
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
The religious aspect of leftism and its oppression narratives, has been well described and largely agreed upon by anybody I would consider to be a serious thinker about anything having to do with current western culture. But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious. Definitionaly they are the antithesis of religion. If a religion were purely based on science and reason, then it would be called science and reason.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious.
Through the actions people take.
Scientists are religious in that:
- They make serious sacrifices. They don't slaughter prized calfs but they put themselves into serious fucking debt to spend years studying. Not scripture but the scientific method.
- They place their truths above others. I mean obviously they do. If they saw the truths found in movies as more meaningful, virtuous and of greater power, they'd have trained up to become scriptwriters, directors or actors instead.
- They place value judgments on others based on their own beliefs. Making an appeal to dead ancestors, saints or Pharaohs is the fastest way to make a scientist's eyes roll.
- They work in service to a deity. Which for them is something like scientific discovery or reason itself. They see this, however you'd like to describe it, as the only proper model of the world and the source of ultimate good. Which is what deities are.
Yes of course they'd find this preposterous. Which kind of proves my point anyway. My description can't possibly be true because there an only be one source of truth, and that one source sure as hell doesn't sound like this as far as they're aware.
But through their actions, what they say they believe in, how they morally judge others and how they make their sacrifices, it's the same shit.
Works for nihilists, too.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious.
Through the actions people take.
Scientists are religious in that:
- They make serious sacrifices. They don't slaughter prized calfs but they put themselves into serious fucking debt to spend years studying. Not scripture but the scientific method.
- They place their truths above others. I mean obviously they do. If they saw the truths found in movies as more meaningful, virtuous and of greater power, they'd have trained up to become scriptwriters, directors or actors instead.
- They place value judgments on others based on their own beliefs. Making an appeal to dead ancestors, saints or Pharaohs is the fastest way to make a scientist's eyes roll.
- They work in service to a deity. Which for them is something like scientific discovery or reason itself. They see this, however you'd like to describe it, as the only proper model of the world and the source of ultimate good. Which is what deities are.
Yes of course they'd find this preposterous. Which kind of proves my point anyway. My description can't possibly be true because there an only be one source of truth, and that one source sure as hell doesn't sound like this as far as they're aware.
But through their actions, what they say they believe in, how they morally judge others and how they make their sacrifices, it's the same shit.
Works for nihilists, too.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious.
Through the actions people take.
Scientists are religious in that:
- They make serious sacrifices. They don't slaughter prized calfs but they put themselves into serious fucking debt to spend years studying. Not scripture but the scientific method.
- They place their truths above others. I mean obviously they do. If they saw the truths found in movies as more meaningful, virtuous and of greater power, they'd have trained up to become scriptwriters, directors or actors instead.
- They place value judgments on others based on their own beliefs. Making an appeal to dead ancestors, saints or Pharaohs is the fastest way to make a scientist's eyes roll.
- They work in service to a deity. Which for them is something like scientific discovery or reason itself. They see this, however you'd like to describe it, as the only proper model of the world and the source of ultimate good. Which is what deities are.
Yes of course they'd find this preposterous. Which kind of proves my point anyway. My description can't possibly be true because there an only be one source of truth, and that one source sure as hell doesn't sound like this as far as they're aware.
But through their actions, what they say they believe in, how they morally judge others and how they make their sacrifices, it's the same shit.
Works for nihilists, too.
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
That is not to say that there can be no unobservable truths, nor that scientists cannot believe in unobservable truths. Only that the two sorts of truths are orthogonal.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
I see both sides. Aqua makes a very good point - people are worshipping a god, just what god is it?
I'm going back to the start of the thread and the WSJ poll...When they are talking religion, they're talking Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim.
I don't think they're framing religion as a belief system, so in that aspect, you're right.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
I think you're stretching the definition of religion too far with that. Not only do most people following the behaviour pattern not believe that is religion, most people involved in traditional religion would agree that it isn't.
You might be better saying that the behaviour is pack-animal related, and religion can be lumped in there, too, along with following sports, music and any number of other behaviour patterns. But nobody would describe being a country music fan as the same as being a sports fan, even though the two mindsets will contain some of the same behavioural characteristics.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
I think you're stretching the definition of religion too far with that. Not only do most people following the behaviour pattern not believe that is religion, most people involved in traditional religion would agree that it isn't.
Yeah, this is covered pretty well in Christianity, too, by the way. Plenty of folks in the Bible are dead wrong about how religious they think they are vs. actually are. It makes a pretty big deal about how worthless empty claims can be.
This is the kind of claim that doesn't help you make any new friends, especially in today's climate, but I'm sorry, when you look at people's actions, it fits.
You claim I'm being way too broad with my use of the word "religion." Yeah, maybe. I could be wrong about all of this, sure. But I'd say that religion's actually much broader than most people think.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious.
Through the actions people take.
Scientists are religious in that:
- They make serious sacrifices. They don't slaughter prized calfs but they put themselves into serious fucking debt to spend years studying. Not scripture but the scientific method.
- They place their truths above others. I mean obviously they do. If they saw the truths found in movies as more meaningful, virtuous and of greater power, they'd have trained up to become scriptwriters, directors or actors instead.
- They place value judgments on others based on their own beliefs. Making an appeal to dead ancestors, saints or Pharaohs is the fastest way to make a scientist's eyes roll.
- They work in service to a deity. Which for them is something like scientific discovery or reason itself. They see this, however you'd like to describe it, as the only proper model of the world and the source of ultimate good. Which is what deities are.
Yes of course they'd find this preposterous. Which kind of proves my point anyway. My description can't possibly be true because there an only be one source of truth, and that one source sure as hell doesn't sound like this as far as they're aware.
But through their actions, what they say they believe in, how they morally judge others and how they make their sacrifices, it's the same shit.
Works for nihilists, too.
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
That is not to say that there can be no unobservable truths, nor that scientists cannot believe in unobservable truths. Only that the two sorts of truths are orthogonal.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
Please love yourself.
