The Homework War

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in The Homework War:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The Homework War:

@Jolly said in The Homework War:

OK, who benefits and who gets hurt?

It's a massive topic, but for example, this is one aspect ol' Vox didn't talk about:

The biggest reason I even have a job is because school does an excellent job beating creativity and independent thinking out of most children. Forced rote work at home is an integral part of that. For God's sake don't play creatively while you're home, we need you to regurgitate the latent heat of fusion for magma.

On the other hand, wanna know the biggest difference between the folks who are awesome at the kind of stuff I do, and the replaceable workers with a factory mentality? The good ones give themselves their own homework assignments. Constantly. But not like the ones in school.

Isn't creativity a talent? Just like musical talent or a person who is a naturally gifted artist?

Look, it's like this: On the road to creativity mastery, there are stops along the way: n00b, hobbyist, student, professional, innovator, master.

Most people can make it to "professional." It's just not that high a bar. Hard work and practice can easily make that happen. Some make it there through "fluid talent"—which is what you're talking about. Others make it through "acquired talent," which takes more time. Both are legit and produce work just as good.

But something happens at the professional level. A lot of people think they've made it, man, they've arrived. And so they stop learning. And I don't care how much fluid talent you have, acquired talent professionals who keep working at it will crush you every time. I've seen it happen plenty.

Now, can you move up and be an innovator? Eh, I dunno about this one. Most people don't, but I think that's mostly a matter of most people not giving enough of a crap because why reach for it? You're already a professional.

Can you be a master? Likely not. Those are the Mozarts and the McCartneys. But you also can't be a master just with fluid talent. You have to put in an ungodly amount of work, too.

Except that most people don't. They only work hard enough to get where they want to be, and then plateau. So no, fluid talent doesn't make you a master, sorry. Not if you didn't put in the work. And to a person, you have no idea how high you can get without working at it. It's going to be much, much higher than you think.

tl;dr: the biggest differentiator out there at the professional level and beyond is how much work people have put into their craft, not how much talent they have.

"We are told that talent creates opportunities, but sometimes intense desire creates not only its own opportunities, but also its own talents." — Bruce Lee

EDIT
I sometimes wonder if there's any difference at all between "fluid talent" and just simply loving to do some particular thing.

[Horace]

There is nothing measurable in terms of talent that differentiates men and women in chess. I've heard it said that what distinguishes them at the top ranks, where men dominate, is the greater likelihood a male will obsess over chess and devote their lives to it.

[Jolly]

OTOH (and I don't know if this refutes or buttresses AL's argument), I heard an interview with George Harrison the other day. It was an interview just before going into the studio and cutting a few tracks with Ringo. It was notable because George and Ringo hadn't worked together in years at that time.

George made an off-the-cuff remark...Ringo's a lot like me. I don't practice guitar. I show up and play.

Now, Harrison is no Clapton, but he's no slouch. And he wrote a fair number of pretty decent songs.

But is Harrison a case of undeveloped talent?

[Mik]

He did put in the work to get good initially. That he did not wish to put in the work to get technically better doesn’t change that.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in The Homework War:

OTOH (and I don't know if this refutes or buttresses AL's argument), I heard an interview with George Harrison the other day. It was an interview just before going into the studio and cutting a few tracks with Ringo. It was notable because George and Ringo hadn't worked together in years at that time.

George made an off-the-cuff remark...Ringo's a lot like me. I don't practice guitar. I show up and play.

Now, Harrison is no Clapton, but he's no slouch. And he wrote a fair number of pretty decent songs.

But is Harrison a case of undeveloped talent?

Could be; how much farther could he have gotten with practice?

In terms of comparison to others, yeah, look, not everyone can be George Harrison. But does that mean you can't do the thing? That you shouldn't try?

The dude Rick Beato has on his YouTube channel all the time, the session guitarist: he makes no bones about the fact that he has had to work his ass off just to have the career he's had. He's no household name, but he lives a life in which he gets a weekend phone call and someone says, "hey, Bob Dylan needs a guitarist, you busy today?" That ain't nothin'.

You can still do really cool stuff almost no one else in the world gets to do, even if you're not endowed with Beatle-level fluid talent.

[Catseye3]

In my early grade school years I got perfect grades. It was easy. Around 4th grade my grades started to slip.

About then the Dept of Defense threw a global achievement test for all military kids. I scored in the top one percent. From this, my father (and I) concluded that I was slipping in school because I was lazy; it couldn't be because I was stupid, obviously, and what other reason could there be!! It never occurred to anybody that it was because my brain had matured enough to become bored with the grade-equivalent version of Dick & Jane I was being subjected to. I was literally not capable of applying the attention needed to perform well.

[Horace]

I never did homework until college. Then I proceeded to almost never do homework during college. I guess I did have to do some stuff for some classes.

My wife was telling me yesterday about school in China, where you don't take standardized tests, but rather one final college entrance exam. She said kids basically live school during their childhoods, wake to sleep. Then they have that one super stressful college exam their whole lives lead up to.

I guess then they proceed to become statistically average global workforce contributors, competing against everybody else who didn't spend their childhoods drilling formal education. Well maybe they're not statistically average. I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure that stuff really isn't worth it.

[Renauda]

@Jolly

Now, Harrison is no Clapton, but he's no slouch. And he wrote a fair number of pretty decent songs.

But is Harrison a case of undeveloped talent?

Two very different types of musicians. Not every great musician is an instrumentalist let alone a virtuoso. In fact more often than not virtuosos are not great composers or song writers. Look at Clapton’s career and albums. Most of his albums are filled with covers of other people’s songs. Now look at Harrison’s. Mostly original songs. Clapton may have played lead guitar on While My Guitar Gently Weeps but George Harrison wrote the song.

[kluurs]

@Horace said in The Homework War:

I never did homework until college.

My story as well. I did homework during school, during classes and breaks.

[Mik]

@kluurs said in The Homework War:

@Horace said in The Homework War:

I never did homework until college.

My story as well. I did homework during school, during classes and breaks.

Same here. For most classes I seldom read the material, save for chapter summaries and definitions. Didn't need to. I don't generally need something explained much to grasp it. This carried through college, except classes I liked, like PoliSci classes.