The death of MAGA

jon-nyc

What I never hear the anti-Ukraine folks address is “and then what”?

Do they think that Putin will be satisfied and become a peaceful member of the international community after absorbing most or all of Ukraine?

Or do they realize he’ll go on to the Baltics, etc, but they’re just ok with him rebuilding the Russian empire?

They never say which.

Mik

I suspect they think Moldova is next, so no big deal, y'know?

jon-nyc

Seriously though it would be easier to engage them seriously rather than dismiss them as Putin’s little bitches if they at least addressed the real question, which is not just about some country most Americans never thought about until a year ago, rather it’s about Putin rebuilding the Russian Empire or at least a substantial part of it.

But they never address it. At least not that I’ve heard.

Jolly

@George-K said in The death of MAGA:

"Republicans attack Joe Biden"

OK...

Which Republicans?

You have to go to paragraph #9 where you find out which Republicans:

Marjorie Taylor Greene

Scott Perry (who???)

Don Jr.

Three. The article names three. One, of whom is not even a government figure (any more). The article says "Some House Republicans." I guess two out of 220 qualifies as "some."

But the headline implies that ALL the GOP is critical.

I agree with what you said about prima donnas, but, c'mon Salon, try to be at least a bit fair.

It's mostly a tempest in a teapot, for the hungry eyes that want to read it. They took the quotes from the people they wanted to take them from. The other side does the same thing (although maybe not quite as bad).

As for support for the war in Ukraine...Among the general public, it's going down. Hasn't reached critical mass, but it might. And it's not because of Tucker or any other pundit. It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem. Or maybe it's because they are more worried about China. Or maybe they are scared of an escalation where U.S. or NATO troops get sucked in.

Regardless, unless Biden can make the case and sell the goods, support will continue to erode.

Horace

@Mik said in The death of MAGA:

@Horace I don't know what Tucker said about it. I don't watch him. But if he's in any way defending Putin, then he's dead to me.

There are plenty of people on this forum who would tell you he defends Putin on the regular. It's not always clear what that means in the context of what he said, or why he said it.

Renauda

@Horace

It's not always clear what that means in the context of what he said, or why he said it.

You’re probably right.

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2022/oct/02/tucker-carlson-ukraine-vladimir-putin-propaganda

Horace

@Renauda said in The death of MAGA:

@Horace

It's not always clear what that means in the context of what he said, or why he said it.

You’re probably right.

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2022/oct/02/tucker-carlson-ukraine-vladimir-putin-propaganda

I'm sure he's said some stupid, wrong, and/or tribally motivated things before regarding the Ukraine war. I'm no more familiar with what he says than anybody else on this forum who reads what we link to about him. But I gather that the directionality of his commentary is to question the US involvement. That can be done in more or less reasonable ways. It does seem to be a foundation of his viewpoint that it's not the end of the world if Russia takes Ukraine, or other non-NATO countries.

So I would characterise the two sides as follows:

US should do anything to keep Ukraine out of Putin's hands, no matter what, escalating as needed.
US should allow Putin to rebuild Russia out of non-NATO countries, and keep to itself militarily.

Personally I would think #1 is the more appropriate course of action. Much of the commentary I've heard from those who seem ok with #2, at least in theory, is to be very clear what #1 means, when taken to an extreme that Putin seems willing to take it.

Aqua Letifer

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Renauda

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

And to reinforce your point, stability in Europe been the cornerstone of US foreign policy since 1945. When the war ended there was no continental power in Europe other than USSR. The US was then the only counterbalance to what appeared to be an expanding Soviet Union. To contain that threat the US introduced first the Marshall Plan then, the initiated the formation of NATO. At its core the alliance was structured so that the USA would take over the traditional continental power roles that France and Germany had played prior to WWII. Britain would remain in its traditional role as a major maritime power in the European theatre with only narrowly defined roles for its land forces on the continent.

Fast forward to present day and that established continental power role, now to counterbalance an expanding Russia, remains in place. The difference now is that Russia having invaded Ukraine in 2014 and again one year ago, is threatening sovereign former Soviet and Warsaw Pact states, now members of NATO and destabilizing all of Europe in the process. Indeed whether some like it or not guaranteeing European security and stability is a vital interest of the US and its foreign policy.

Jolly

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

And things were much dicier at that time. Beware the words of Washington...

Mik

Perhaps s not, but we were sending a hell of a lot of money and arms.

Renauda

@Jolly

I agree, he likely would have waited until at least Midway in June ‘42 before committing Europe. Although increased German u-boat activity against US ships could have forced that date earlier and Hitler declared war anyway, your point is moot to the conversation.

Aqua Letifer

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

Jolly

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

The America First Committee was formed in 1940 and by 1941 had 400,000 - 450,000 members. Those members included many prominent or famous people, from Lindbergh to Lillian Gish to Eddie Rickenbacker. The first head of the organization was a retired general, who at the time was chairman of Sears, Roebuck & Co. Other, younger members included Gerald R. Ford and John F. Kennedy.

Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported the basic idea of America First. So much so, it took FDR two months of arm-twisting and dealing (both of which he was good at) to get Lend-Lease through Congress.

The AFC disbanded after Pearl harbor and Hitler's declaration of war.

Aqua Letifer

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

The America First Committee was formed in 1940 and by 1941 had 400,000 - 450,000 members. Those members included many prominent or famous people, from Lindbergh to Lillian Gish to Eddie Rickenbacker. The first head of the organization was a retired general, who at the time was chairman of Sears, Roebuck & Co. Other, younger members included Gerald R. Ford and John F. Kennedy.

Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported the basic idea of America First. So much so, it took FDR two months of arm-twisting and dealing (both of which he was good at) to get Lend-Lease through Congress.

The AFC disbanded after Pearl harbor and Hitler's declaration of war.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/british-king-visits-u-s

This was not a social call. The British, and to some extent the Canadians, had continuous talks before 1939 and after, with FDR about how to warm Americans up to inevitable involvement in Europe.

Jolly

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

The America First Committee was formed in 1940 and by 1941 had 400,000 - 450,000 members. Those members included many prominent or famous people, from Lindbergh to Lillian Gish to Eddie Rickenbacker. The first head of the organization was a retired general, who at the time was chairman of Sears, Roebuck & Co. Other, younger members included Gerald R. Ford and John F. Kennedy.

Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported the basic idea of America First. So much so, it took FDR two months of arm-twisting and dealing (both of which he was good at) to get Lend-Lease through Congress.

The AFC disbanded after Pearl harbor and Hitler's declaration of war.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/british-king-visits-u-s

This was not a social call. The British, and to some extent the Canadians, had continuous talks before 1939 and after, with FDR about how to warm Americans up to inevitable involvement in Europe.

And FDR was dragging them, kicking and screaming. After The Great War, many Americans had little stomach for U.S. boys dying on European ground.

Aqua Letifer

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

The America First Committee was formed in 1940 and by 1941 had 400,000 - 450,000 members. Those members included many prominent or famous people, from Lindbergh to Lillian Gish to Eddie Rickenbacker. The first head of the organization was a retired general, who at the time was chairman of Sears, Roebuck & Co. Other, younger members included Gerald R. Ford and John F. Kennedy.

Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported the basic idea of America First. So much so, it took FDR two months of arm-twisting and dealing (both of which he was good at) to get Lend-Lease through Congress.

The AFC disbanded after Pearl harbor and Hitler's declaration of war.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/british-king-visits-u-s

This was not a social call. The British, and to some extent the Canadians, had continuous talks before 1939 and after, with FDR about how to warm Americans up to inevitable involvement in Europe.

And FDR was dragging them, kicking and screaming. After The Great War, many Americans had little stomach for U.S. boys dying on European ground.

I don't understand what your point is, other than illustrating how ignorant some Americans are about the futility of isolationism.

Renauda

And FDR was dragging them, kicking and screaming. After The Great War, many Americans had little stomach for U.S. boys dying on European ground.

True that Admiral King and the navy were only interested in fighting the Japanese. Not so certain about the Army. They were pretty gung-ho about fighting Gerry. A lot of midwestern folks were not too impressed with Mr. Hitler and what he was doing to their ancestral homelands.

Doctor Phibes

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

@Aqua-Letifer said in The death of MAGA:

@Jolly said in The death of MAGA:

It's because many Americans are wondering why the Europeans don't take care of a European problem.

How in the hell can you possibly look at what's actually happening and claim it's not our problem. It's our problem whether we want it to be or not.

Without a declaration of war by Hitler, I'm not sure Roosevelt would have sent troops to Europe in 1942.

Oh yes he would. He laid a ton of groundwork with the Brits and the Canadians to get America ready long before war was declared. He saw it was inevitable. Which it was.

The America First Committee was formed in 1940 and by 1941 had 400,000 - 450,000 members. Those members included many prominent or famous people, from Lindbergh to Lillian Gish to Eddie Rickenbacker. The first head of the organization was a retired general, who at the time was chairman of Sears, Roebuck & Co. Other, younger members included Gerald R. Ford and John F. Kennedy.

Politicians on both sides of the aisle supported the basic idea of America First. So much so, it took FDR two months of arm-twisting and dealing (both of which he was good at) to get Lend-Lease through Congress.

The AFC disbanded after Pearl harbor and Hitler's declaration of war.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/british-king-visits-u-s

This was not a social call. The British, and to some extent the Canadians, had continuous talks before 1939 and after, with FDR about how to warm Americans up to inevitable involvement in Europe.

And FDR was dragging them, kicking and screaming. After The Great War, many Americans had little stomach for U.S. boys dying on European ground.

I don't understand what your point is, other than illustrating how ignorant some Americans are about the futility of isolationism.

You’d think American mistakes in the 1930’s would be a lesson rather than a model

Jolly

@Renauda said in The death of MAGA:

And FDR was dragging them, kicking and screaming. After The Great War, many Americans had little stomach for U.S. boys dying on European ground.

True that Admiral King and the navy were only interested in fighting the Japanese. Not so certain about the Army. They were pretty gung-ho about fighting Gerry. A lot of midwestern folks were not too impressed with Mr. Hitler and what he was doing to their ancestral homelands.

AFC was strongest in the Midwest, especially in the Chicago area. The Army has an out-sized percentage of Southerners, even today. The South has an awful lot of Scotch-Irish folks...If they don't have someone else to fight, they'll fight each other.

The New Coffee Room

The death of MAGA