The Rise of Vice
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@Jolly ok, ignore the point.
It's interesting how conservatives are all about freedom, until it's freedom to do stuff they don't approve of.
And in the interests of balance, and to avoid a torrent of whataboutism, yes, the left are even worse in that regard.
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@Jolly ok, ignore the point.
It's interesting how conservatives are all about freedom, until it's freedom to do stuff they don't approve of.
And in the interests of balance, and to avoid a torrent of whataboutism, yes, the left are even worse in that regard.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly ok, ignore the point.
It's interesting how conservatives are all about freedom, until it's freedom to do stuff they don't approve of.
And in the interests of balance, and to avoid a torrent of whataboutism, yes, the left are even worse in that regard.
So are you implying the pure conservative position would be one of anarchy? There is a libertarian argument that closely aligns with that idea.
Most reasonable conservatives believe more in basic rights balanced within a framework of laws to allow society to operate. So long as these laws are applied equally and do not violate our basic rights, then there is no problem. There may be some disagreement with some laws but that’s a far cry from tyranny.
Now as for the incarceration rates, you always ignore the argument that when you remove young African American males from the mix that our incarceration rates are much the same as Europe’s. So the question becomes are the laws in the US specifically and inherently racist against African American Men, are their cultural and behavioral causes among African American Men that leads to their incarceration, a third unseen cause, or some mixture of all?
The Brad
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I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
You could have started with Louisiana. Highest incarceration rate on the planet.
When I worked for Empower, I was the Prison Guy. Dixon, LaBorde, Hunt and The Farm. I was at Angola at least once a month. I guess they gave that job because of a few factors...I knew the Corrections retirement system well, I had worked with inmates for years and knew proximity protocols, handcuffs, waist chains, leg shackles, etc. Not that I ran into that stuff very much, but I was one of the very few people the correction officers would let go behind those sliding bars.
Interesting enough, I also worked with the folks at Jackson, the institution for the criminally insane. And not, they didn't let me in those buildings. Employees in those buildings are locked in with their patients and have no keys or combinations to open the doors, should things go bad.
Now, since we have weaved down this primrose pathway and I have established bona fides, let me tell you what you see in those places...A lot of black inmates, mostly urban, with a lot of the more violent offenders having a gang and drug related background. Louisiana is about 35% black, but they make up 80% of the prison population.
That's what I saw. Now, you tell me why.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly ok, ignore the point.
It's interesting how conservatives are all about freedom, until it's freedom to do stuff they don't approve of.
And in the interests of balance, and to avoid a torrent of whataboutism, yes, the left are even worse in that regard.
So are you implying the pure conservative position would be one of anarchy? There is a libertarian argument that closely aligns with that idea.
Most reasonable conservatives believe more in basic rights balanced within a framework of laws to allow society to operate. So long as these laws are applied equally and do not violate our basic rights, then there is no problem. There may be some disagreement with some laws but that’s a far cry from tyranny.
Now as for the incarceration rates, you always ignore the argument that when you remove young African American males from the mix that our incarceration rates are much the same as Europe’s. So the question becomes are the laws in the US specifically and inherently racist against African American Men, are their cultural and behavioral causes among African American Men that leads to their incarceration, a third unseen cause, or some mixture of all?
@LuFins-Dad said in The Rise of Vice:
Now as for the incarceration rates, you always ignore the argument that when you remove young African American males from the mix that our incarceration rates are much the same as Europe’s.
There are also ethnic minorities in Europe. You need to take them out of Europe's figures if you're going to blame everything on race.
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I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
You could have started with Louisiana. Highest incarceration rate on the planet.
When I worked for Empower, I was the Prison Guy. Dixon, LaBorde, Hunt and The Farm. I was at Angola at least once a month. I guess they gave that job because of a few factors...I knew the Corrections retirement system well, I had worked with inmates for years and knew proximity protocols, handcuffs, waist chains, leg shackles, etc. Not that I ran into that stuff very much, but I was one of the very few people the correction officers would let go behind those sliding bars.
Interesting enough, I also worked with the folks at Jackson, the institution for the criminally insane. And not, they didn't let me in those buildings. Employees in those buildings are locked in with their patients and have no keys or combinations to open the doors, should things go bad.
Now, since we have weaved down this primrose pathway and I have established bona fides, let me tell you what you see in those places...A lot of black inmates, mostly urban, with a lot of the more violent offenders having a gang and drug related background. Louisiana is about 35% black, but they make up 80% of the prison population.
That's what I saw. Now, you tell me why.
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
Have you visited Europe recently?
I was only joking
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly ok, ignore the point.
It's interesting how conservatives are all about freedom, until it's freedom to do stuff they don't approve of.
And in the interests of balance, and to avoid a torrent of whataboutism, yes, the left are even worse in that regard.
So are you implying the pure conservative position would be one of anarchy? There is a libertarian argument that closely aligns with that idea.
Most reasonable conservatives believe more in basic rights balanced within a framework of laws to allow society to operate. So long as these laws are applied equally and do not violate our basic rights, then there is no problem. There may be some disagreement with some laws but that’s a far cry from tyranny.
Now as for the incarceration rates, you always ignore the argument that when you remove young African American males from the mix that our incarceration rates are much the same as Europe’s. So the question becomes are the laws in the US specifically and inherently racist against African American Men, are their cultural and behavioral causes among African American Men that leads to their incarceration, a third unseen cause, or some mixture of all?
@LuFins-Dad said in The Rise of Vice:
So are you implying the pure conservative position would be one of anarchy? There is a libertarian argument that closely aligns with that idea.
Most reasonable conservatives believe more in basic rights balanced within a framework of laws to allow society to operate. So long as these laws are applied equally and do not violate our basic rights, then there is no problem. There may be some disagreement with some laws but that’s a far cry from tyranny.No, I'm not implying anything. However, banning gambling and gay marriage isn't exactly championing personal freedom, is it?
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@LuFins-Dad said in The Rise of Vice:
So are you implying the pure conservative position would be one of anarchy? There is a libertarian argument that closely aligns with that idea.
Most reasonable conservatives believe more in basic rights balanced within a framework of laws to allow society to operate. So long as these laws are applied equally and do not violate our basic rights, then there is no problem. There may be some disagreement with some laws but that’s a far cry from tyranny.No, I'm not implying anything. However, banning gambling and gay marriage isn't exactly championing personal freedom, is it?
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
banning gambling
I thought one of the points in this article was how addictive and harmful gambling is, and how easy it is to get hooked into the whirlwind of slots, etc.
The same argument, with a few modifications, can be made about cigarettes...or alcohol, for that matter.
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@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
Have you visited Europe recently?
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
Have you visited Europe recently?
I suspect the U.S. had more illegal aliens come into the country, than some European countries have population...
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
Have you visited Europe recently?
I suspect the U.S. had more illegal aliens come into the country, than some European countries have population...
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
I'm not ignoring the point. The U.S. is not like most countries. We are not a homogenous society. We are a huge melting pot of races and creeds, trying to mold society into a single culture.
Have you visited Europe recently?
I suspect the U.S. had more illegal aliens come into the country, than some European countries have population...
Just to cherry pick one very large European city, London is 46.2% non-white, and 17% white ethnic minority. That's pretty freaking diverse.
Also, you can't post as much as American conservatives do about the imminent Islamic takeover of Europe, and then in the next breath claim there's no racial diversity.
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So I take it you feel that subsidizing an increase in vice, by not controlling it by arrest and prosecution, is a good thing?
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So I take it you feel that subsidizing an increase in vice, by not controlling it by arrest and prosecution, is a good thing?
@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
So I take it you feel that subsidizing an increase in vice, by not controlling it by arrest and prosecution, is a good thing?
I didn't say that. I'm not convinced using marijuana is any worse than drinking alcohol, and calling it 'vice' is a bit excessive. Locking people up for smoking dope is flat out stupid. Does anybody really want that?
Gambling is an awful thing. I don't know what the heck to do about it, to be honest. I do know that whenever I go into a gas station, the line-up always contains one or more people buying lottery tickets who really don't look as though they can afford them. Channeling all these folk into a casino doesn't seem like a particularly great idea, either.
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@Jolly said in The Rise of Vice:
Through an abundance of tolerance, an unwillingness to punish people for their misdeeds and defining deviancy downwards, we have created a perfect storm of how to fuck up a society in the least amount of time possible.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country
I feel like I keep posting this ad nauseum, but still....
Top 10 Countries with the highest rate of incarceration:
United States — 629
Rwanda — 580
Turkmenistan — 576
El Salvador — 564
Cuba — 510
Palau — 478
British Virgin Islands (U.K. territory) — 477
Thailand — 445
Panama — 423
Saint Kitts and Nevis — 423That doesn't really look like a country that's unwilling to punish people to me.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Rise of Vice:
Top 10 Countries with the highest rate of incarceration
Comparing to other countries really isn't the best measure.
If money was no object, what is the optimal % of people incarcerated?
What is the goal?
The USA has 629 people per 100,000.
Let's try 1,000 per 100,000 and see how that works, don't worry about the rest of the world.
Also, let's remember our convicts are very comfortable and well educated compared to the rest of the world.
Or other third world countries?
