Will the November election be clear?
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@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
So quit fixating on what you'd politically like to fixate on, and fix the damn problem.
Or do you not wish to fix the problem?
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@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
You had a President that had an election stolen. Had a VP that had one stolen, too.
Waaaay past time to address these issues. If you don't have vote integrity, you don't have a functioning republic.
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
Waaaay past time to address these issues.
The issues that have shown themselves to be real issues are indeed being addressed. See, for example, https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR8873IH.pdf and https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4573
The United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack is also working to address the issues not fully addressed by the bills referenced above.
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There's nothing I can do to fix it.
You could help, maybe. After all, what turned this from a fringe belief to a core (expressed) belief of the GOP is the 30-40MM voters who put loyalty to Trump (which requires public fealty to the Big Lie) above all else in the primaries. I don't have any sway with those people, maybe you do.
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TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
Right. That’s what the Existential Threat messaging and meme did for the left, long before January 6. Those histrionics are where society went off the rails. Fear and anticipation of election fraud is perfectly reasonable when one side is considered an existential threat by the other side. That’s how disaster avoidance works. You do whatever you can and whatever you have to, and the time for following rules is past.
People on the left would proudly testify to those sorts of feels when they were emoting cathartically. Break any rule, do whatever you can, now is the time to prove your character and your courage, blah blah blah. You heard that shit as clearly as anybody else. But now those people are letting everybody know that they would never be ok with election fraud. Uh huh.
I think Trump lost in 2020, but I am sufficiently attached to reality that I can understand where the concerns about election fraud come from.
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You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
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You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
I get that you are afraid of Republicans winning national elections because you believe there is a realistic chance they will end our democracy. I do not share that belief. And I think your belief would be wingnutty absent January 6. But granted, your belief is mainstream now. Because of a riot by a bunch of imbeciles.
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Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose.
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
As I said, a total meltdown would be just fine.
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TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
We know with complete certainty that actual election integrity issues need not be present. It is sufficient for someone, anyone, to simply make the accusation in MAGA-TV land. It doesn't matter how ridiculous the accusations are, as we saw so clearly in 2020.
And the incentive structure guarantees we will see this again - Maga grifters are incentivized to get on TV. Maga-TV is incentivized to give their audience what they want. Maga audiences want their feels confirmed and will turn the channel until they get what they want. This is 100% predictable and shall happen, regardless of how tight or loose elections are run.
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See, that's where your logic fails. Unlike you, I actually live among people in MAGA-land, in Tea Party-land. A lot of people call it small town and rural America. You know, the people who aren't shakers and movers, the ones not into arbitrage, bitcoin or buying stock options.
No, these are the guys with conservative values that still believe the ideal America is one that still has values that are in tune with most of the values we have had since our founding.
You know, the Sons of Martha.
They're pretty level-headed. They don't need to google what fraud looks like or have Trump give a speech, they know.
The solution is very simple...Hold elections with an absolute minimum of fraud. I've talked about it ad nauseum for years. I think most of these Ultra-MAGAs (is that Joe's pet word for the day?) would have no problem with a free and fair election.
It seems to be people on the Left that keep inventing excuses as to why we can't have fair elections...
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
Well my point was that your opinion would seem fringey absent Jan 6, regardless of why you feel as you feel. And I can be forgiven for thinking you’re afraid of Republicans winning, when actually you’re more afraid of them losing. I’m sure that makes sense to you in your own head, but out here in everybody else’s, I suspect we’re satisfied that you’re afraid of Republicans winning.
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
Duly noted hand wave about increased but unquantifiable possibilities. You’re fringe in the extent you worry about that particular thing, and of course it’s overwhelmingly likely you will never be proven prescient about the risk. But you can still be satisfied that you recognized the risk where few others ever did.
Education is extremely important.
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Or....
Maybe the average working stiffs finally get enough. Maybe we get that next civil war. Some folks have wondered what it might look like.
How about a slogan from one I think might be similar...
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
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Or....
Maybe the average working stiffs finally get enough. Maybe we get that next civil war. Some folks have wondered what it might look like.
How about a slogan from one I think might be similar...
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
Or....
Maybe the average working stiffs finally get enough. Maybe we get that next civil war. Some folks have wondered what it might look like.
How about a slogan from one I think might be similar...
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
Which is more probable, the Republicans stealing the republic using mechanisms available to either party (but with Republicans being the threat because they have no principles), or a Civil War?
I guess Republicans win either way. Sucks to be a Democrat! Losers.
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See, that's where your logic fails. Unlike you, I actually live among people in MAGA-land, in Tea Party-land. A lot of people call it small town and rural America. You know, the people who aren't shakers and movers, the ones not into arbitrage, bitcoin or buying stock options.
No, these are the guys with conservative values that still believe the ideal America is one that still has values that are in tune with most of the values we have had since our founding.
You know, the Sons of Martha.
They're pretty level-headed. They don't need to google what fraud looks like or have Trump give a speech, they know.
The solution is very simple...Hold elections with an absolute minimum of fraud. I've talked about it ad nauseum for years. I think most of these Ultra-MAGAs (is that Joe's pet word for the day?) would have no problem with a free and fair election.
It seems to be people on the Left that keep inventing excuses as to why we can't have fair elections...
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
See, that's where your logic fails. Unlike you, I actually live among people in MAGA-land, in Tea Party-land. A lot of people call it small town and rural America. You know, the people who aren't shakers and movers, the ones not into arbitrage, bitcoin or buying stock options.
No, these are the guys with conservative values that still believe the ideal America is one that still has values that are in tune with most of the values we have had since our founding.
You know, the Sons of Martha.
They're pretty level-headed. They don't need to google what fraud looks like or have Trump give a speech, they know.
The solution is very simple...Hold elections with an absolute minimum of fraud. I've talked about it ad nauseum for years. I think most of these Ultra-MAGAs (is that Joe's pet word for the day?) would have no problem with a free and fair election.
That might have been convincing in 2019. But since then we all witnessed Sidney Powell, Lin Wood, the pillow guy, and various other comic book grifters weave the most outlandish tales on Maga TV, keeping millions of Cult45 members glued to their spittle-flecked TV screens, all the while being encouraged by the Fat Man himself.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
Well my point was that your opinion would seem fringey absent Jan 6, regardless of why you feel as you feel. And I can be forgiven for thinking you’re afraid of Republicans winning, when actually you’re more afraid of them losing. I’m sure that makes sense to you in your own head, but out here in everybody else’s, I suspect we’re satisfied that you’re afraid of Republicans winning.
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
Duly noted hand wave about increased but unquantifiable possibilities. You’re fringe in the extent you worry about that particular thing, and of course it’s overwhelmingly likely you will never be proven prescient about the risk. But you can still be satisfied that you recognized the risk where few others ever did.
@Horace I'm not "afraid of Republicans losing", of course, I'm afraid of what some among them might do if they do lose.
As for hand-waviness, do you really expect a numerical estimate for the possibility of such things?
Suffice it to say it was unthinkable in 2020 for people to use these largely ceremonial certification roles for partisan ends, which is why they withstood the pressure from Trump at the time. Since then there are people who are seeking out these roles precisely because they'd have the "courage" to use them in support of their Leader.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
See, that's where your logic fails. Unlike you, I actually live among people in MAGA-land, in Tea Party-land. A lot of people call it small town and rural America. You know, the people who aren't shakers and movers, the ones not into arbitrage, bitcoin or buying stock options.
No, these are the guys with conservative values that still believe the ideal America is one that still has values that are in tune with most of the values we have had since our founding.
You know, the Sons of Martha.
They're pretty level-headed. They don't need to google what fraud looks like or have Trump give a speech, they know.
The solution is very simple...Hold elections with an absolute minimum of fraud. I've talked about it ad nauseum for years. I think most of these Ultra-MAGAs (is that Joe's pet word for the day?) would have no problem with a free and fair election.
That might have been convincing in 2019. But since then we all witnessed Sidney Powell, Lin Wood, the pillow guy, and various other comic book grifters weave the most outlandish tales on Maga TV, keeping millions of Cult45 members glued to their spittle-flecked TV screens, all the while being encouraged by the Fat Man himself.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
See, that's where your logic fails. Unlike you, I actually live among people in MAGA-land, in Tea Party-land. A lot of people call it small town and rural America. You know, the people who aren't shakers and movers, the ones not into arbitrage, bitcoin or buying stock options.
No, these are the guys with conservative values that still believe the ideal America is one that still has values that are in tune with most of the values we have had since our founding.
You know, the Sons of Martha.
They're pretty level-headed. They don't need to google what fraud looks like or have Trump give a speech, they know.
The solution is very simple...Hold elections with an absolute minimum of fraud. I've talked about it ad nauseum for years. I think most of these Ultra-MAGAs (is that Joe's pet word for the day?) would have no problem with a free and fair election.
That might have been convincing in 2019. But since then we all witnessed Sidney Powell, Lin Wood, the pillow guy, and various other comic book grifters weave the most outlandish tales on Maga TV, keeping millions of Cult45 members glued to their spittle-flecked TV screens, all the while being encouraged by the Fat Man himself.
Quit reading the Left-wing rags and go walk among the unwashed masses...
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@Horace I'm not "afraid of Republicans losing", of course, I'm afraid of what some among them might do if they do lose.
As for hand-waviness, do you really expect a numerical estimate for the possibility of such things?
Suffice it to say it was unthinkable in 2020 for people to use these largely ceremonial certification roles for partisan ends, which is why they withstood the pressure from Trump at the time. Since then there are people who are seeking out these roles precisely because they'd have the "courage" to use them in support of their Leader.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
@Horace I'm not "afraid of Republicans losing", of course, I'm afraid of what some among them might do if they do lose.
As for hand-waviness, do you really expect a numerical estimate for the possibility of such things?
Suffice it to say it was unthinkable in 2020 for people to use these largely ceremonial certification roles for partisan ends, which is why they withstood the pressure from Trump at the time. Since then there are people who are seeking out these roles precisely because they'd have the "courage" to use them in support of their Leader.
I am sure everybody on this forum would like to see any such loophole closed. I am not sure anybody on this forum is as worried about those loopholes as you are. Maybe that’s because you recognize the risks more clearly than anybody else. But as far as I’m aware, absent the notion that Republicans are the only party devious enough to use those loopholes, we should expect bipartisan support for closing them.
I would not expect your existential risk estimation of the existence of the Republican Party to lower, after those loopholes closed. Something else would rush in to fill the existential risk void. And your choice of who to publicly support in elections, will continue to be no choice at all. The simplest pro/con formulation of all. All that nuance you’re capable of, and it boils down to an existential risk, and therefore, no choice at all. And it alway will. Don’t take my word for it, just watch.
