Will the November election be clear?
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I am very sure both sides are primed to suspect the integrity of results of elections at this point. The degree of suspicion will be directly proportional to the plausibility of the other side having the power to get away with it. If it leads to more bulletproof processes, it's a good thing.
It's not easy as a society to pull back reasonably from a mainstream notion that our president, and by extension an entire political party, is an existential threat. From there it doesn't take a genius to know that if an election is corruptible, it will be corrupted. By normal people who believe normal things.
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We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
You moot an interesting point, Jon.
Still, the only real way to quell this is to tighten up election procedures.
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We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
Let’s take a case in point, JD Vance. How would you characterize his opinions and beliefs regarding these things you are afraid of?
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@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
Let’s take a case in point, JD Vance. How would you characterize his opinions and beliefs regarding these things you are afraid of?
@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
You had a President that had an election stolen. Had a VP that had one stolen, too.
Waaaay past time to address these issues. If you don't have vote integrity, you don't have a functioning republic.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
So quit fixating on what you'd politically like to fixate on, and fix the damn problem.
Or do you not wish to fix the problem?
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@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
We had a president who tried to steal an election. While the majority of his party didn’t back the effort at the time, ex-post support has since become a litmus test for primary success in much, perhaps even most of the country. While my greatest concern is for 2024, it’s not hard to imagine state GOP functionaries employing some of these tools in 2022 if the right conditions obtain.
You had a President that had an election stolen. Had a VP that had one stolen, too.
Waaaay past time to address these issues. If you don't have vote integrity, you don't have a functioning republic.
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
Waaaay past time to address these issues.
The issues that have shown themselves to be real issues are indeed being addressed. See, for example, https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR8873IH.pdf and https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4573
The United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack is also working to address the issues not fully addressed by the bills referenced above.
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There's nothing I can do to fix it.
You could help, maybe. After all, what turned this from a fringe belief to a core (expressed) belief of the GOP is the 30-40MM voters who put loyalty to Trump (which requires public fealty to the Big Lie) above all else in the primaries. I don't have any sway with those people, maybe you do.
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TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Horace He’s an interesting case because he was highly critical of Trump until the week he decided to run for office at which point he kissed the ring, which involves becoming an election denier, or at least claiming to be one.
It’s impossible to tell what Vance really believes, but perpetuating Trump’s delusion is damaging in itself.
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
The problem with the Big Lie is it gives otherwise decent people permission to do horrible things, like put a de facto end to our democracy.
Right. That’s what the Existential Threat messaging and meme did for the left, long before January 6. Those histrionics are where society went off the rails. Fear and anticipation of election fraud is perfectly reasonable when one side is considered an existential threat by the other side. That’s how disaster avoidance works. You do whatever you can and whatever you have to, and the time for following rules is past.
People on the left would proudly testify to those sorts of feels when they were emoting cathartically. Break any rule, do whatever you can, now is the time to prove your character and your courage, blah blah blah. You heard that shit as clearly as anybody else. But now those people are letting everybody know that they would never be ok with election fraud. Uh huh.
I think Trump lost in 2020, but I am sufficiently attached to reality that I can understand where the concerns about election fraud come from.
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You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
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You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
You realize your first two paragraphs describe not only what elements of the right thought, but what they actually did.
And now there are far more of them prepared to do it and/or support it.
I get that you are afraid of Republicans winning national elections because you believe there is a realistic chance they will end our democracy. I do not share that belief. And I think your belief would be wingnutty absent January 6. But granted, your belief is mainstream now. Because of a riot by a bunch of imbeciles.
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Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose. (so you managed to be literally 100% wrong)
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
@jon-nyc said in Will the November election be clear?:
Actually it has nothing to do with Jan 6 and everything to do with what happened in the two months before then. Also the fear is unrelated to them winning, like in 2020, the problem will be in the elections they lose.
The actual risk is local officials either (a) refusing to certify the vote in districts that went voted the wrong way, thus overturning the election results, or (b) refusing to certify delegates and/or sending in their own competing slate.
The chances of these happening successfully have increased since 2020, quite a bit, especially in a handful of key states.
As I said, a total meltdown would be just fine.
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TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
@Jolly said in Will the November election be clear?:
TDS is real. You have a bad case.
We're talking election integrity and you're fixated on Trump. That's not a cogent thought, it's an agenda.
We know with complete certainty that actual election integrity issues need not be present. It is sufficient for someone, anyone, to simply make the accusation in MAGA-TV land. It doesn't matter how ridiculous the accusations are, as we saw so clearly in 2020.
And the incentive structure guarantees we will see this again - Maga grifters are incentivized to get on TV. Maga-TV is incentivized to give their audience what they want. Maga audiences want their feels confirmed and will turn the channel until they get what they want. This is 100% predictable and shall happen, regardless of how tight or loose elections are run.
