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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Puzzle time

Puzzle time

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  • J Online
    J Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on 21 Jun 2020, 23:36 last edited by
    #1

    In a circle are light bulbs numbered clockwise 1 through 100, all initially on. At time t, you examine bulb number t (if t > 100, it's the light bulb whose number is the last two digits of t). If that light bulb is on, you change the state of bulb t+1; i.e., you turn off the clockwise-next bulb if it's on, and on if it's off. If bulb t is off, you do nothing.

    If you continue around and around the ring in this manner, will it ever happen that all 100 bulbs will again be on?

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    1 Reply Last reply
    • J Online
      J Online
      jon-nyc
      wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 11:32 last edited by
      #2

      Big hint:

      Is the process reversible?

      Only non-witches get due process.

      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
      1 Reply Last reply
      • A Away
        A Away
        Axtremus
        wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 14:56 last edited by
        #3

        By running simulations, I can "see" that for smaller # of bulbs, they do return to the state where all bulbs are on. I ran simulations up to 30 bulbs.

        There is some hint of iterating the process (2 to the power of the # of bulbs) times to return to the state where all bulbs are on, but not consistently so. I haven't figure out the pattern yet.

        If you don't mind, please do not post the answer yet ... I'd like to see if I can return to this puzzle later. Thanks.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • H Offline
          H Offline
          Horace
          wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 15:03 last edited by
          #4

          I draw the line at writing code or writing anything down for these puzzles. I couldn’t make much headway with this one though I had tried the reversal and a reductio of the lightbulbs. Either there is an infinite loop which returns to all off or they eventually turn to all on.

          Education is extremely important.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • L Offline
            L Offline
            Larry
            wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 15:26 last edited by
            #5

            The answer is 12.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • K Offline
              K Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 16:28 last edited by Klaus
              #6

              So you start with t = 0 (i.e. turn bulb 1 off), then t=1 (do nothing with bulb 2), then t=2 (turn bulb 3 of) and so forth. After the first round, all odd numbered bulbs are off and all even numbered ones are on.

              Correct so far?

              I haven't thought a lot about it yet, but the only fixed point seems to be that all bulbs are off. Hmm... My first guess is that it will return to that same state around time t=2^100.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • J Online
                J Online
                jon-nyc
                wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:08 last edited by
                #7

                Your first paragraph is correct. You’re also correct that straight 0s is stable.

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • J Online
                  J Online
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:10 last edited by jon-nyc
                  #8

                  My first guess was that it would return because lower numbers do. But you need to do better than guess.

                  Like Ax I wrote code to play a bit but after 36 bulbs ran for a full day I gave up on the brute force method.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  A 1 Reply Last reply 27 Jun 2020, 17:45
                  • H Offline
                    H Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:16 last edited by
                    #9

                    Is it not inevitable that it returns to all off? I don’t think there can exist a loop which does not eventually return to every antecedent state. And if there is no loop then you have to assume that the infinity of future states must contain all off. Which makes a loop. Maybe the insight is that all such state machines are necessarily looping.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • H Offline
                      H Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:19 last edited by
                      #10

                      Pinhole loops are not possible because they would require two different antecedent states leading to the same next state. And it seems a pinhole loop is the only way the state would never revert to the initial conditions.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • J Online
                        J Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:36 last edited by
                        #11

                        Yes that is the answer. From reversibility it follows.

                        (assuming you meant 'all on' not 'all off')

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • H Offline
                          H Offline
                          Horace
                          wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:43 last edited by
                          #12

                          Whichever one is less racist, that’s the one I meant.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • J jon-nyc
                            27 Jun 2020, 17:10

                            My first guess was that it would return because lower numbers do. But you need to do better than guess.

                            Like Ax I wrote code to play a bit but after 36 bulbs ran for a full day I gave up on the brute force method.

                            A Away
                            A Away
                            Axtremus
                            wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 17:45 last edited by
                            #13

                            @jon-nyc said in Puzzle time:

                            Like Ax I wrote code to play a bit but after 36 bulbs ran for a full day I gave up on the brute force method.

                            Just out of curiosity, I ran a simulation for 36 bulbs on a MacBook Air (1.6 GHz Intel Core i5). It took 10 minutes and 36 seconds to reach the "all on" state at the 22,839,252,821st iteration. I implemented my simulator using Go.

                            What did you use to implement and run your simulation?

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • H Offline
                              H Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 18:07 last edited by
                              #14

                              I would add the reversibility isn’t a sufficient condition to answer the problem, you also need a finite number of possible states.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • J Online
                                J Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 18:09 last edited by jon-nyc
                                #15

                                yes yes. there are fewer than 100*2^100 states.

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • J Online
                                  J Online
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 18:09 last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Ax I was exaggerating but I used python on the Mac

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • K Offline
                                    K Offline
                                    Klaus
                                    wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 20:21 last edited by Klaus
                                    #17

                                    Nice puzzle!

                                    Let's analyze this some more.

                                    Every state is in a cycle that has a length n. We just established that the set of states is the disjoint union of all cycles.

                                    Let's consider a histogram of cycle lengths. For instance, "000....000" is in a cycle of length one, hence we add one to the bin for cycles of length 1.

                                    What kind of shape will the histogram have? And the extra Nassim Taleb Black Swan question is: does it have a "fat tail"?

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • J Online
                                      J Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on 27 Jun 2020, 21:08 last edited by
                                      #18

                                      I graphed out some early ones, they do not. THey're in the general shape of a normal curve (not saying they're normal).

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      K 1 Reply Last reply 28 Jun 2020, 09:00
                                      • B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        brenda
                                        wrote on 28 Jun 2020, 00:40 last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Are these Christmas tree bulbs? If so, the answer is that they will never all be on again until you buy new ones.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • J jon-nyc
                                          27 Jun 2020, 21:08

                                          I graphed out some early ones, they do not. THey're in the general shape of a normal curve (not saying they're normal).

                                          K Offline
                                          K Offline
                                          Klaus
                                          wrote on 28 Jun 2020, 09:00 last edited by
                                          #20

                                          @jon-nyc what do you mean by "early ones"? . I was talking about cycle length distributions. I'm not sure we talk about the same thing.

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