Subtitles required
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Here's Why Movie Dialogue Has Gotten More Difficult To Understand
I used to be able to understand 99% of the dialogue in Hollywood films. But over the past 10 years or so, I've noticed that percentage has dropped significantly — and it's not due to hearing loss on my end. It's gotten to the point where I find myself occasionally not being able to parse entire lines of dialogue when I see a movie in a theater, and when I watch things at home, I've defaulted to turning the subtitles on to make sure I don't miss anything crucial to the plot.
Knowing I'm not alone in having these experiences, I reached out to several professional sound editors, designers, and mixers, many of whom have won Oscars for their work on some of Hollywood's biggest films, to get to the bottom of what's going on. One person refused to talk to me, saying it would be "professional suicide" to address this topic on the record. Another agreed to talk, but only under the condition that they remain anonymous. But several others spoke openly about the topic, and it quickly became apparent that this is a familiar subject among the folks in the sound community, since they're the ones who often bear the brunt of complaints about dialogue intelligibility.
(Tom) Hardy occupies a unique position in film acting these days, having developed a delivery style that's frequently so indecipherable it's as if he's purposefully challenging audiences to lean in and understand what he's saying. But what about actors who aren't quite on that level of unintelligibility?
"It seems to be a little bit of a fad with some actors to do the sort of soft delivery or under your breath delivery of some lines," Curley says. "That's a personal choice for them. Our job is to record it as well as we can regardless."
Mangini says that in the old days, "you could count on an actor's theatricality to deliver a line to the back seats." But acting styles have changed so dramatically over the years that it has become much more difficult to capture great sound on the set. When actors adopt that more naturalistic style, "it's even harder for the production sound mixer to capture really quality sound. Now we get those compromised microphone positions here in post-production, reaching for a dialogue line that is barely intelligible or maybe even mumbled because it's an acting style, and already, we're behind the 8-ball in trying to figure out a way to make all of those words intelligible."
Karen Baker Landers, whose credits include "Gladiator," "Skyfall," and "Heat," among many others, has her own term for it. "Mumbling, breathy, I call it self-conscious type of acting, is so frustrating," she says. "I would say a lot of the younger actors have adopted that style. I think the onus also falls on the directors to say, 'I can't understand a word you're saying. I'm listening to dailies, and I can't understand.' No amount of volume is going to fix that."
Much, much more at the link. It's a multifaceted issue with everything from the sound people on set being "pushed" out of the way to how it is mixed for the theaters.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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Yeah, old movies’ actors often deliver lines like they were in a stage play. It’s more intelligible, but also more unnatural, less like “real life.” Real life speech is often less intelligent than staged speech.
As I used to argue with DivaDeb, technology plays a part in this. When the old sound/microphone tech sucked, actors/singers had to speak/sing a certain way to be heard. With better sound/microphone tech, actors/singers can expand their range of expression and the better tech can still capture the nuance — whispers can be more like whispers, screams can be more like screams. Of course real whispers and real screams are less intelligible than pretend-whispers and pretend-screams in old stage acts.
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Yeah, old movies’ actors often deliver lines like they were in a stage play. It’s more intelligible, but also more unnatural, less like “real life.” Real life speech is often less intelligent than staged speech.
As I used to argue with DivaDeb, technology plays a part in this. When the old sound/microphone tech sucked, actors/singers had to speak/sing a certain way to be heard. With better sound/microphone tech, actors/singers can expand their range of expression and the better tech can still capture the nuance — whispers can be more like whispers, screams can be more like screams. Of course real whispers and real screams are less intelligible than pretend-whispers and pretend-screams in old stage acts.
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Here's Why Movie Dialogue Has Gotten More Difficult To Understand
I used to be able to understand 99% of the dialogue in Hollywood films. But over the past 10 years or so, I've noticed that percentage has dropped significantly — and it's not due to hearing loss on my end. It's gotten to the point where I find myself occasionally not being able to parse entire lines of dialogue when I see a movie in a theater, and when I watch things at home, I've defaulted to turning the subtitles on to make sure I don't miss anything crucial to the plot.
Knowing I'm not alone in having these experiences, I reached out to several professional sound editors, designers, and mixers, many of whom have won Oscars for their work on some of Hollywood's biggest films, to get to the bottom of what's going on. One person refused to talk to me, saying it would be "professional suicide" to address this topic on the record. Another agreed to talk, but only under the condition that they remain anonymous. But several others spoke openly about the topic, and it quickly became apparent that this is a familiar subject among the folks in the sound community, since they're the ones who often bear the brunt of complaints about dialogue intelligibility.
(Tom) Hardy occupies a unique position in film acting these days, having developed a delivery style that's frequently so indecipherable it's as if he's purposefully challenging audiences to lean in and understand what he's saying. But what about actors who aren't quite on that level of unintelligibility?
"It seems to be a little bit of a fad with some actors to do the sort of soft delivery or under your breath delivery of some lines," Curley says. "That's a personal choice for them. Our job is to record it as well as we can regardless."
Mangini says that in the old days, "you could count on an actor's theatricality to deliver a line to the back seats." But acting styles have changed so dramatically over the years that it has become much more difficult to capture great sound on the set. When actors adopt that more naturalistic style, "it's even harder for the production sound mixer to capture really quality sound. Now we get those compromised microphone positions here in post-production, reaching for a dialogue line that is barely intelligible or maybe even mumbled because it's an acting style, and already, we're behind the 8-ball in trying to figure out a way to make all of those words intelligible."
Karen Baker Landers, whose credits include "Gladiator," "Skyfall," and "Heat," among many others, has her own term for it. "Mumbling, breathy, I call it self-conscious type of acting, is so frustrating," she says. "I would say a lot of the younger actors have adopted that style. I think the onus also falls on the directors to say, 'I can't understand a word you're saying. I'm listening to dailies, and I can't understand.' No amount of volume is going to fix that."
Much, much more at the link. It's a multifaceted issue with everything from the sound people on set being "pushed" out of the way to how it is mixed for the theaters.
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I've never had this problem. I remember my grandad used to complain about everybody mumbling on TV. Eventually we bought him a hearing aid.
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@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
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@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
@George-K said in Subtitles required:
@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
It's funny, nobody in the UK has a problem understanding American accents, probably because we grew up listening to Mel Blanc, Paul Winchell and Daws Butler.
Well, when I say 'We', I really mean 'Old people'.
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@George-K said in Subtitles required:
@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
It's funny, nobody in the UK has a problem understanding American accents, probably because we grew up listening to Mel Blanc, Paul Winchell and Daws Butler.
Well, when I say 'We', I really mean 'Old people'.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Subtitles required:
@George-K said in Subtitles required:
@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
It's funny, nobody in the UK has a problem understanding American accents, probably because we grew up listening to Mel Blanc, Paul Winchell and Daws Butler.
That's because the typical American accent one hears in movies, is neutral. It is the absence of an accent. There are minor twangs here and there, but the various UK accents are an order of magnitude more affected, away from neutral.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Subtitles required:
@George-K said in Subtitles required:
@Copper said in Subtitles required:
I use subtitles all the time now.
Especially for British mysteries.
Double especially for those with Scottish accents.
It's funny, nobody in the UK has a problem understanding American accents, probably because we grew up listening to Mel Blanc, Paul Winchell and Daws Butler.
That's because the typical American accent one hears in movies, is neutral. It is the absence of an accent. There are minor twangs here and there, but the various UK accents are an order of magnitude more affected, away from neutral.
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I wouldn't describe Mel Blanc's accent as 'neutral'.
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I use subtitles all the time also.
On another thought, I would be interested to hear what an "American" accent sounded like when Abe Lincoln was president.
Same with George Washing ton.
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I use subtitles all the time also.
On another thought, I would be interested to hear what an "American" accent sounded like when Abe Lincoln was president.
Same with George Washing ton.
@taiwan_girl said in Subtitles required:
Same with George Washing ton.
https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/facts/washingtons-voice/
Research offers many clues to how Washington sounded. As to the question of whether or not Washington had an English accent, there are many possibilities. Washington was born on February 22, 1732 in Westmoreland County, Virginia. His parents, Augustine and Mary Ball Washington, were part of the gentry class and of English descent. Since the newly formed United States was physically separate from England, different dialects formed within the early colonies. Likely they would influence the accents of those around Washington in rural Virginia. Further, newer elements of the English language, adapting itself across the Atlantic, may not have made it to the areas with less contact to England. Washington’s accent may have been more influenced by the rural setting of his younger years than it was by his exposure to people with English accents. Considering all of this and his farmer upbringing, it is safe to speculate that Washington’s natural accent was, as Morse portrays it, predominantly American with a detectable English influence.
Washington’s contemporaries described his voice similarly to the way that Morse, Kahn, and others have portrayed it. Fisher Ames, a representative in the United States Congress, said Washington’s voice was “deep, a little tremulous, and so low as to call for close attention.” Other contemporaries of Washington described his tone as dispassionate, which Paul K. Longmore, author of “The Invention of George Washington” argues reassured Americans of a lack of emotionality that could have led Washington to tyranny. George Mercer, a friend to Washington, wrote that “His voice is agreeable rather than strong.” Mercer’s comment supports the idea that Washington’s voice may have been weaker than what has been popularly portrayed.
David Morse in the 2008 miniseries John Adams took a similar, research-based approach to developing Washington’s voice. The result is a low-pitched, raspy, and tremulous voice. Morse opted for a very slight, English accent, especially compared to earlier depictions and Kahn’s performance in Turn. On the search for the right voice, Morse commented, “The accent back then was probably nothing like what we think of as a Southern accent now or a New England accent now, so we tried to find the root of the accents. For Washington, it was a little bit of Cornwall, that western country English accent with a trace of farmer.” The tremulous nature of Morse’s voice in John Adams adds a quiet, reserved nature to Washington that is not as pronounced in other performances.
Morse's performance:
Link to videoKahn:
Link to videoI loved "Turn." Some historical inaccuracies, of course, but overall a fair depiction of the underground network during the American revolution. Also, Burn Gorman...
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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I don't think anybody ever accused Jimmy Stewart of being a "play to the back rows" kinda guy, yet you could understand every word he said.
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@taiwan_girl said in Subtitles required:
Same with George Washing ton.
https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/facts/washingtons-voice/
Research offers many clues to how Washington sounded. As to the question of whether or not Washington had an English accent, there are many possibilities. Washington was born on February 22, 1732 in Westmoreland County, Virginia. His parents, Augustine and Mary Ball Washington, were part of the gentry class and of English descent. Since the newly formed United States was physically separate from England, different dialects formed within the early colonies. Likely they would influence the accents of those around Washington in rural Virginia. Further, newer elements of the English language, adapting itself across the Atlantic, may not have made it to the areas with less contact to England. Washington’s accent may have been more influenced by the rural setting of his younger years than it was by his exposure to people with English accents. Considering all of this and his farmer upbringing, it is safe to speculate that Washington’s natural accent was, as Morse portrays it, predominantly American with a detectable English influence.
Washington’s contemporaries described his voice similarly to the way that Morse, Kahn, and others have portrayed it. Fisher Ames, a representative in the United States Congress, said Washington’s voice was “deep, a little tremulous, and so low as to call for close attention.” Other contemporaries of Washington described his tone as dispassionate, which Paul K. Longmore, author of “The Invention of George Washington” argues reassured Americans of a lack of emotionality that could have led Washington to tyranny. George Mercer, a friend to Washington, wrote that “His voice is agreeable rather than strong.” Mercer’s comment supports the idea that Washington’s voice may have been weaker than what has been popularly portrayed.
David Morse in the 2008 miniseries John Adams took a similar, research-based approach to developing Washington’s voice. The result is a low-pitched, raspy, and tremulous voice. Morse opted for a very slight, English accent, especially compared to earlier depictions and Kahn’s performance in Turn. On the search for the right voice, Morse commented, “The accent back then was probably nothing like what we think of as a Southern accent now or a New England accent now, so we tried to find the root of the accents. For Washington, it was a little bit of Cornwall, that western country English accent with a trace of farmer.” The tremulous nature of Morse’s voice in John Adams adds a quiet, reserved nature to Washington that is not as pronounced in other performances.
Morse's performance:
Link to videoKahn:
Link to videoI loved "Turn." Some historical inaccuracies, of course, but overall a fair depiction of the underground network during the American revolution. Also, Burn Gorman...
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@taiwan_girl said in Subtitles required:
Same with George Washing ton.
https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/facts/washingtons-voice/
Research offers many clues to how Washington sounded. As to the question of whether or not Washington had an English accent, there are many possibilities. Washington was born on February 22, 1732 in Westmoreland County, Virginia. His parents, Augustine and Mary Ball Washington, were part of the gentry class and of English descent. Since the newly formed United States was physically separate from England, different dialects formed within the early colonies. Likely they would influence the accents of those around Washington in rural Virginia. Further, newer elements of the English language, adapting itself across the Atlantic, may not have made it to the areas with less contact to England. Washington’s accent may have been more influenced by the rural setting of his younger years than it was by his exposure to people with English accents. Considering all of this and his farmer upbringing, it is safe to speculate that Washington’s natural accent was, as Morse portrays it, predominantly American with a detectable English influence.
Washington’s contemporaries described his voice similarly to the way that Morse, Kahn, and others have portrayed it. Fisher Ames, a representative in the United States Congress, said Washington’s voice was “deep, a little tremulous, and so low as to call for close attention.” Other contemporaries of Washington described his tone as dispassionate, which Paul K. Longmore, author of “The Invention of George Washington” argues reassured Americans of a lack of emotionality that could have led Washington to tyranny. George Mercer, a friend to Washington, wrote that “His voice is agreeable rather than strong.” Mercer’s comment supports the idea that Washington’s voice may have been weaker than what has been popularly portrayed.
David Morse in the 2008 miniseries John Adams took a similar, research-based approach to developing Washington’s voice. The result is a low-pitched, raspy, and tremulous voice. Morse opted for a very slight, English accent, especially compared to earlier depictions and Kahn’s performance in Turn. On the search for the right voice, Morse commented, “The accent back then was probably nothing like what we think of as a Southern accent now or a New England accent now, so we tried to find the root of the accents. For Washington, it was a little bit of Cornwall, that western country English accent with a trace of farmer.” The tremulous nature of Morse’s voice in John Adams adds a quiet, reserved nature to Washington that is not as pronounced in other performances.
Morse's performance:
Link to videoKahn:
Link to videoI loved "Turn." Some historical inaccuracies, of course, but overall a fair depiction of the underground network during the American revolution. Also, Burn Gorman...
@George-K said in Subtitles required:
Also, Burn Gorman...
He plays a great villain, doesn't he. I first saw him in the Doctor Who spinoff, Torchwood, and he's been great in everything that I've seen since.
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@George-K said in Subtitles required:
Also, Burn Gorman...
He plays a great villain, doesn't he. I first saw him in the Doctor Who spinoff, Torchwood, and he's been great in everything that I've seen since.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Subtitles required:
He plays a great villain, doesn't he
Indeed. Look at his characters in The Expanse and Man in the High Castle.
OTOH, in Turn, he actually became kind of sympathetic.
For a British colonizer that is, and that's a pretty low (high?) bar.
