Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe
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tl;dr version: US has more prison(and prisoners) but fewer cops.
There are two basic ways for the government to deter crime: increase punishment (more prison) or increase the probability of punishment (more police). The United States differs from European countries in how it mixes these approaches.
The US and EU both spend about 1.2% of GDP on police and prisons, but while the EU spends about 5 to 1 in favor of police, the US spends just 1.5 to 1.
As a share of GDP, the EU spends 33% more than the US on police and 60% less on prisons.
In the US, the ratio has shifted significantly over time to favor more prison. Prior to the late 1970s, when incarceration rates started to take off around the country, the US consistently spent about 3 to 1 on police.
Comparing individual US states and EU members shows that the averages aren’t being skewed by outliers. Only one US state had a higher police-to-prison ratio than any European country. -
I’d love to see a deeper dive on the cop side.
Maybe cops per capita rather than percent of gdp. Does that reduce the difference? How about policing hours? Since
those lazy Europeansthey work fewer hours, they might have more people for the same level of policing. They might also pay them better. Or account for their pensions differently.And finally, are their tasks that the cops do there that are done by other law enforcement agencies here? For example, do we need to wrap in ATF, Secret Service, FBI, etc into our totals to make the comparisons valid?
tl;dr: I have questions.
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What I've really noticed is the difference in the day-to-day relationship between British and US police and the public. In the UK, it was much more common to see the police just walking around on the street - in a shopping area or whatever, whereas in the US pretty much the only time I see one out of the car is if he's directing traffic or at a construction site/roadworks. The UK police would chat to people. There's less opportunity to develop a positive relationship with the general public if the only time you speak to them is to deal with some kind of transgression.
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You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.
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@Copper said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,
Make the PD work like the FDOh yeah. Elevated risk of bodily harm, elevated health risks, elevated depression, elevated divorce rate, elevated suicide rate -- and all for no pay! Great idea.
Not.
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Some thoughts...
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Community policing. I think it helps to have food with regular beats in urban areas. I also think it helps to have cops living in neighborhoods.
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I'm not sure bodycams help or hurt. They can police bad cops, but they also limit a cop's flexibility.
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Historically speaking, crime is not as awful as we think.
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Education and training can help alleviate poverty, which in turn lowers crime.
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People need some Jesus. Or Yahweh. Or Buddha. Or something to replace the nothingness of the secular life.
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Some procedures do need to be changed, such as doing away with No-knock Warrants.
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I can see having SWAT teams, but AFVs in a police department are a bit much. Next thing, they'll want helicopter gunships.
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Prisons. Prisons should be rural. They should grow much of their own food using innate labor. Emphasis should be placed on training and education. And churches. I'll flesh that last statement out, if y'all want to know why.
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Respect for authority. A lot of blacks die by cop, simply because they are raised with no respect for authority.
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Agitators and outside money. I talked last week with a friend who was enduring a protest march in her hometown. She knows many of the police and all good her the same thing...Almost all of the protesters arrived by bus and it was very evident they were organized and commanded by one man and two helpers. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but outside people should not be disrupting a community (and costing them money) unless a certain percentage of the community wants these protesters brought in...
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
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@Jolly said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
Some thoughts...
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Community policing. I think it helps to have food with regular beats in urban areas. I also think it helps to have cops living in neighborhoods.
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I'm not sure bodycams help or hurt. They can police bad cops, but they also limit a cop's flexibility.
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Historically speaking, crime is not as awful as we think.
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Education and training can help alleviate poverty, which in turn lowers crime.
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People need some Jesus. Or Yahweh. Or Buddha. Or something to replace the nothingness of the secular life.
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Some procedures do need to be changed, such as doing away with No-knock Warrants.
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I can see having SWAT teams, but AFVs in a police department are a bit much. Next thing, they'll want helicopter gunships.
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Prisons. Prisons should be rural. They should grow much of their own food using innate labor. Emphasis should be placed on training and education. And churches. I'll flesh that last statement out, if y'all want to know why.
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Respect for authority. A lot of blacks die by cop, simply because they are raised with no respect for authority.
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Agitators and outside money. I talked last week with a friend who was enduring a protest march in her hometown. She knows many of the police and all good her the same thing...Almost all of the protesters arrived by bus and it was very evident they were organized and commanded by one man and two helpers. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but outside people should not be disrupting a community (and costing them money) unless a certain percentage of the community wants these protesters brought in...
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Yep. Trade schools and apprenticeships FTW
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And chokeholds
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Demilitarize. yes.
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Yes. We let prisoners lift weights, get stronger and come out of prison with nothing but more advanced criminal skills. Again, trade schools and apprenticeships. Here in Cincinnati we have a company called Nehemiah Manufacturing that has been very successful putting people released from jail into jobs. It's a model that can be followed anywhere. https://www.nehemiahmfg.com/
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Public hangings for paid, imported protestors and those who hire them. Whoops..that might be a little over the line. Not much, but still......
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@jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.
I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.
I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.
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@Klaus said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
@jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.
I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.
I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.
Lawyers.
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Speaking of prison jobs...Two jobs are very coveted at Angola:
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The golf course. Angola is the only prison in America with a nine hole good course. They have one to a) keep more guards on the grounds after their working hours and on the weekends and b) to train prisoners in all aspects of good course maintenance. The prison has a waiting list from outside, wanting to hire groundskeepers.
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Prison cook at Camp A. Camp A has the Death Row inmates, but it is also next to the Administration buildings. The best cooks from the various camps are pulled to Camp A to cook. There, they are taught all aspects of cooking in, and running a commercial kitchen. As trustees, they are then sent to the Governor's Mansion, where they serve our their term cooking for the governor and whomever he entertains. Those guys are usually hired immediately on release.
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"My pronouns are FA/FO." - Mik, 2024
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@Mik said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:
Teach a man to fish.
True, but not all of the time. There are some really talented guys down on The Farm. They are allowed to sell their art, craft projects, metal works and wood works at the prison rodeo.
