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  3. Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe

Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe

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  • L Offline
    L Offline
    Loki
    wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 12:21 last edited by
    #6

    What happened to free healthcare and free education? Are they suddenly yesterday? Now in the midst of pandemic and economic depression we are focused on what to do about the police.

    Think about how crazy we are.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • C Offline
      C Offline
      Copper
      wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 12:38 last edited by
      #7

      Deputize everyone

      About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,

      Make the PD work like the FD

      Maybe use something like the military draft

      C L 2 Replies Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 12:46
      • C Copper
        15 Jun 2020, 12:38

        Deputize everyone

        About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,

        Make the PD work like the FD

        Maybe use something like the military draft

        C Offline
        C Offline
        Catseye3
        wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 12:46 last edited by
        #8

        @Copper said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

        About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,
        Make the PD work like the FD

        Oh yeah. Elevated risk of bodily harm, elevated health risks, elevated depression, elevated divorce rate, elevated suicide rate -- and all for no pay! Great idea.

        Not.

        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

        C 1 Reply Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 12:51
        • J Offline
          J Offline
          Jolly
          wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 12:47 last edited by
          #9

          Some thoughts...

          1. Community policing. I think it helps to have food with regular beats in urban areas. I also think it helps to have cops living in neighborhoods.

          2. I'm not sure bodycams help or hurt. They can police bad cops, but they also limit a cop's flexibility.

          3. Historically speaking, crime is not as awful as we think.

          4. Education and training can help alleviate poverty, which in turn lowers crime.

          5. People need some Jesus. Or Yahweh. Or Buddha. Or something to replace the nothingness of the secular life.

          6. Some procedures do need to be changed, such as doing away with No-knock Warrants.

          7. I can see having SWAT teams, but AFVs in a police department are a bit much. Next thing, they'll want helicopter gunships.

          8. Prisons. Prisons should be rural. They should grow much of their own food using innate labor. Emphasis should be placed on training and education. And churches. I'll flesh that last statement out, if y'all want to know why.

          9. Respect for authority. A lot of blacks die by cop, simply because they are raised with no respect for authority.

          10. Agitators and outside money. I talked last week with a friend who was enduring a protest march in her hometown. She knows many of the police and all good her the same thing...Almost all of the protesters arrived by bus and it was very evident they were organized and commanded by one man and two helpers. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but outside people should not be disrupting a community (and costing them money) unless a certain percentage of the community wants these protesters brought in...

          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

          M 1 Reply Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 13:15
          • C Catseye3
            15 Jun 2020, 12:46

            @Copper said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

            About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,
            Make the PD work like the FD

            Oh yeah. Elevated risk of bodily harm, elevated health risks, elevated depression, elevated divorce rate, elevated suicide rate -- and all for no pay! Great idea.

            Not.

            C Offline
            C Offline
            Copper
            wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 12:51 last edited by
            #10

            @Catseye3 said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

            Elevated , elevated , elevated , elevated , elevated Great idea.

            Not.

            alt text

            1 Reply Last reply
            • J Jolly
              15 Jun 2020, 12:47

              Some thoughts...

              1. Community policing. I think it helps to have food with regular beats in urban areas. I also think it helps to have cops living in neighborhoods.

              2. I'm not sure bodycams help or hurt. They can police bad cops, but they also limit a cop's flexibility.

              3. Historically speaking, crime is not as awful as we think.

              4. Education and training can help alleviate poverty, which in turn lowers crime.

              5. People need some Jesus. Or Yahweh. Or Buddha. Or something to replace the nothingness of the secular life.

              6. Some procedures do need to be changed, such as doing away with No-knock Warrants.

              7. I can see having SWAT teams, but AFVs in a police department are a bit much. Next thing, they'll want helicopter gunships.

              8. Prisons. Prisons should be rural. They should grow much of their own food using innate labor. Emphasis should be placed on training and education. And churches. I'll flesh that last statement out, if y'all want to know why.

              9. Respect for authority. A lot of blacks die by cop, simply because they are raised with no respect for authority.

              10. Agitators and outside money. I talked last week with a friend who was enduring a protest march in her hometown. She knows many of the police and all good her the same thing...Almost all of the protesters arrived by bus and it was very evident they were organized and commanded by one man and two helpers. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but outside people should not be disrupting a community (and costing them money) unless a certain percentage of the community wants these protesters brought in...

              M Offline
              M Offline
              Mik
              wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 13:15 last edited by
              #11

              @Jolly said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

              Some thoughts...

              1. Community policing. I think it helps to have food with regular beats in urban areas. I also think it helps to have cops living in neighborhoods.

              2. I'm not sure bodycams help or hurt. They can police bad cops, but they also limit a cop's flexibility.

              3. Historically speaking, crime is not as awful as we think.

              4. Education and training can help alleviate poverty, which in turn lowers crime.

              5. People need some Jesus. Or Yahweh. Or Buddha. Or something to replace the nothingness of the secular life.

              6. Some procedures do need to be changed, such as doing away with No-knock Warrants.

              7. I can see having SWAT teams, but AFVs in a police department are a bit much. Next thing, they'll want helicopter gunships.

              8. Prisons. Prisons should be rural. They should grow much of their own food using innate labor. Emphasis should be placed on training and education. And churches. I'll flesh that last statement out, if y'all want to know why.

              9. Respect for authority. A lot of blacks die by cop, simply because they are raised with no respect for authority.

              10. Agitators and outside money. I talked last week with a friend who was enduring a protest march in her hometown. She knows many of the police and all good her the same thing...Almost all of the protesters arrived by bus and it was very evident they were organized and commanded by one man and two helpers. I'm not sure what can be done about that, but outside people should not be disrupting a community (and costing them money) unless a certain percentage of the community wants these protesters brought in...

              1. Yep. Trade schools and apprenticeships FTW

              2. And chokeholds

              3. Demilitarize. yes.

              4. Yes. We let prisoners lift weights, get stronger and come out of prison with nothing but more advanced criminal skills. Again, trade schools and apprenticeships. Here in Cincinnati we have a company called Nehemiah Manufacturing that has been very successful putting people released from jail into jobs. It's a model that can be followed anywhere. https://www.nehemiahmfg.com/

              5. Public hangings for paid, imported protestors and those who hire them. Whoops..that might be a little over the line. Not much, but still......

              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

              1 Reply Last reply
              • J jon-nyc
                15 Jun 2020, 12:17

                You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                K Offline
                K Offline
                Klaus
                wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 13:32 last edited by
                #12

                @jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.

                I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.

                J D 2 Replies Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 13:34
                • K Klaus
                  15 Jun 2020, 13:32

                  @jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                  You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                  I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.

                  I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.

                  J Offline
                  J Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 13:34 last edited by
                  #13

                  @Klaus said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                  @jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                  You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                  I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.

                  I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.

                  Lawyers.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • J Offline
                    J Offline
                    Jolly
                    wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 13:42 last edited by
                    #14

                    Speaking of prison jobs...Two jobs are very coveted at Angola:

                    1. The golf course. Angola is the only prison in America with a nine hole good course. They have one to a) keep more guards on the grounds after their working hours and on the weekends and b) to train prisoners in all aspects of good course maintenance. The prison has a waiting list from outside, wanting to hire groundskeepers.

                    2. Prison cook at Camp A. Camp A has the Death Row inmates, but it is also next to the Administration buildings. The best cooks from the various camps are pulled to Camp A to cook. There, they are taught all aspects of cooking in, and running a commercial kitchen. As trustees, they are then sent to the Governor's Mansion, where they serve our their term cooking for the governor and whomever he entertains. Those guys are usually hired immediately on release.

                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 13:56 last edited by
                      #15

                      Teach a man to fish.

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      J 1 Reply Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 14:25
                      • M Mik
                        15 Jun 2020, 13:56

                        Teach a man to fish.

                        J Offline
                        J Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:25 last edited by
                        #16

                        @Mik said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                        Teach a man to fish.

                        True, but not all of the time. There are some really talented guys down on The Farm. They are allowed to sell their art, craft projects, metal works and wood works at the prison rodeo.

                        alt text

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • J Offline
                          J Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:26 last edited by
                          #17

                          alt text

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • J Offline
                            J Offline
                            Jolly
                            wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:27 last edited by
                            #18

                            alt text

                            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:29 last edited by
                              #19

                              alt text

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • J Offline
                                J Offline
                                Jolly
                                wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:33 last edited by
                                #20

                                And don't forget to buy a t-shirt while you're there:

                                alt text

                                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • K Klaus
                                  15 Jun 2020, 13:32

                                  @jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                  You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                                  I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.

                                  I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.

                                  D Offline
                                  D Offline
                                  Doctor Phibes
                                  wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 14:36 last edited by
                                  #21

                                  @Klaus said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                  @jon-nyc said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                  You live in suburbia. In NYC they walk around and talk to people a lot.

                                  I still think Phibes is right that the relationship to policemen is different. Talking to a policeman here feels like talking to any other person. The threat of authority and potential violence isn't permanently in the air. That's different in the US, I think.

                                  I mean, just look at the protocol of a standard traffic check. Americans stay in their car and are worried that they'll be shot otherwise. Policemen approach the car under the default assumption that somebody might draw a shotgun or something at any second. It's a situation with a lot of tension. If they want to detain you, even for very minor things, they handcuff you and throw you into a car with security glass. These kinds of things are very different here.

                                  The difference is nothing new. An English friend of my dad's came over here in the 1960's, and got pulled over by the police for some minor infringement. As the cop walked over, my dad's friend opened the car door, with the idea of apologizing and explaining to the police. To his amazement, the cop pulled a gun on him.

                                  And to repeat a point I've complained about in the past - if you want to forge a bond with the public, try ditching the militaristic looking riding breeches and the mirrored sunglasses.

                                  I was only joking

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • C Copper
                                    15 Jun 2020, 12:38

                                    Deputize everyone

                                    About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,

                                    Make the PD work like the FD

                                    Maybe use something like the military draft

                                    L Offline
                                    L Offline
                                    LuFins Dad
                                    wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 16:28 last edited by
                                    #22

                                    @Copper said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                    Deputize everyone

                                    About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,

                                    Make the PD work like the FD

                                    Maybe use something like the military draft

                                    Do you know how many Volunteer Firefighters are arsonists? You would be surprised. I would hate to see the same thing happen with police.

                                    The Brad

                                    C 1 Reply Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 20:22
                                    • L LuFins Dad
                                      15 Jun 2020, 16:28

                                      @Copper said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                      Deputize everyone

                                      About 70 percent of America's firefighters are volunteers, and 85 percent of the nation's fire departments are all or mostly volunteer,

                                      Make the PD work like the FD

                                      Maybe use something like the military draft

                                      Do you know how many Volunteer Firefighters are arsonists? You would be surprised. I would hate to see the same thing happen with police.

                                      C Offline
                                      C Offline
                                      Copper
                                      wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 20:22 last edited by
                                      #23

                                      @LuFins-Dad said in Police vs. Prisons in the US and Europe:

                                      I would hate to see the same thing happen with police.

                                      cnn would give you the impression that it already has.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • H Offline
                                        H Offline
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 20:35 last edited by
                                        #24

                                        a military style draft is a wonderful idea. Not least to give our most compassionate souls a road map for how to be compassionate towards police officers and their day to day.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • RainmanR Offline
                                          RainmanR Offline
                                          Rainman
                                          wrote on 15 Jun 2020, 20:56 last edited by
                                          #25

                                          I would be interested in some input from Taiwan Girl.

                                          She has extensive experience working throughout Asia or SE Asia, I'd like to know her assessment of what she has experienced or seen in terms of the police, and incarceration. With any luck, she's been in jail in some of these countries, and can give some firsthand input.

                                          In terms of the police during the Soviet era, I was told by a relative that police are "like a hot stove." You stay away and avoid them altogether.

                                          Many of the ideas everyone has expressed, have been tried in the past, or are currently part of the justice system. So, how is it that good ideas revert back to the mean, which is not acceptible? My guess is that budget and appropriations slowly decrease, that good programs and good ideas end up under the "there's not enough money in the budget."

                                          taiwan_girlT 1 Reply Last reply 15 Jun 2020, 23:14
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