The Devil's Laughter
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You're talking about Carrie's mom. In most religious households I know it's done gently and with love. It's not forced. That doesn't drive anyone anywhere.
The biggest thing a parent needs to understand is they are planting seeds that don't sprout immediately. You plant the seed, and you nurture it and nurture it and eventually it takes root. Sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes decades. But you will usually reap what you sow. The things you plant in a kid's head percolate around for a long age, but they are in there.
@Mik said in The Devil's Laughter:
You're talking about Carrie's mom. In most religious households I know it's done gently and with love. It's not forced. That doesn't drive anyone anywhere.
I also work at Renn faires. Those places are absolutely chock full of very far liberal children of strict, religious, out-of-touch parents.
It's my estimation that it wasn't the strictness or the religion that drove them that way. It was that third. So no, I don't agree that lack of religion is the problem here.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
@Mik said in The Devil's Laughter:
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.
That was just one example to illustrate a point. It's a very prevalent problem—so much so that a recent movie about it won an Academy Award. And this happens plenty in religious households.
Family estrangement's up in America. The research suggests it's not lack of morality that's the culprit. There's a disconnect between what a lot of parents think their job is (providing education and opportunities) and what the kids are looking for (understanding and acceptance).
I think it's important to be a lot more deliberate about this today. Used to be, misunderstood kids might just go out and become potheads. Now, they'll just simply die of fentanyl. Or want sex change operations at age 12 because they're at least getting "encouragement" from the wokes, which they think will fill the gap in belonging their parents left behind.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier. All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier. All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier.
This is not an occasional outlier, Jolly. This is a massive problem. There are far, far more radically left people out there who had out-of-touch religious parents than there are those who had little to no religious exposure. I've dealt with this personally, as has my wife, my cousins, the friends I grew up with, and the majority of the 15,800 people I deal with every weekend.
All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
Yeah, you aren't getting it. It's not about compromising any values, or any authority.
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And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
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And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
No, I got that and I agree. But if you do it in a tone-deaf kinda way, you're going to fail and the blame is going to be at your feet.
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Whose definition of tone-deaf? Parents? Children? Aunt Bea? Innocent bystanders?
Children rebel. The 1960's were writ large with it and I'm wondering if we're not now living through the same type of societal upheaval, driven by prosperity and willing Big Tech.
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Whose definition of tone-deaf? Parents? Children? Aunt Bea? Innocent bystanders?
Children rebel. The 1960's were writ large with it and I'm wondering if we're not now living through the same type of societal upheaval, driven by prosperity and willing Big Tech.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
Whose definition of tone-deaf?
I made it as clear as I can. Gotta do your best to understand your kids, and follow Mik's rule about things they stand to lose by providing what's actually needed. If you want to keep playing games that's up to you.
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My experience is that whether or not a person claims to be religious does not have any relation to how good a person they are.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
That's not the point.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But I thought you were saying that there is not enough religion (or religious thought) in the upraising of kids.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
That's not the point.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But I thought you were saying that there is not enough religion (or religious thought) in the upraising of kids.
@taiwan_girl said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
That's not the point.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But I thought you were saying that there is not enough religion (or religious thought) in the upraising of kids.
And what does that have to do with the statement you made?
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@taiwan_girl said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
That's not the point.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But I thought you were saying that there is not enough religion (or religious thought) in the upraising of kids.
And what does that have to do with the statement you made?
@Jolly Someone saying that they are religious does not seem to have an impact on how good a person they and how good they raise their kids.
(Again, must my observation.)
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@Jolly Someone saying that they are religious does not seem to have an impact on how good a person they and how good they raise their kids.
(Again, must my observation.)
@taiwan_girl said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly Someone saying that they are religious does not seem to have an impact on how good a person they and how good they raise their kids.
(Again, must my observation.)
So, what do they base their morals and standards on?
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@taiwan_girl said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly Someone saying that they are religious does not seem to have an impact on how good a person they and how good they raise their kids.
(Again, must my observation.)
So, what do they base their morals and standards on?
@Jolly Common human decency. Be a good person. Treat others well.
I dont think this is a religious thing.
I dont think that a religion is needed to tell me that I shouldn't walk into a store and walk out not paying for things.
Now, I agree that it is a big problem that common human decency is not being installed in a lot of kids today.
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Common human decency?
There is no such thing.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
Common human decency?
There is no such thing.
Hmmm ... maybe you can blame that rather unfortunate omission on whoever or whatever created the humans, if you are the sort who believe that humans were created.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
Common human decency?
There is no such thing.
Hmmm ... maybe you can blame that rather unfortunate omission on whoever or whatever created the humans, if you are the sort who believe that humans were created.
@Axtremus said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
Common human decency?
There is no such thing.
Hmmm ... maybe you can blame that rather unfortunate omission on whoever or whatever created the humans, if you are the sort who believe that humans were created.
Nope...I think Jon is our most prominent atheist or agnostic, and he has a good mind. I remember something he said the other day about God-given rights...There ain't no such animal. We are similar to the beasts of field and plain and in most circumstances will revert back to might makes right and the Law of the Jungle. More subtle, perhaps, but true nonetheless.
Therefore, if that be true, man has no inherent decency. Most decency at a macro level is enforced by man-made law. And pretty much anywhere you go, law is codified morality and that morality is always descended from the predominant religion.
Given the opportnity at even the most basic level, the natural state of man is not peace, but war. War which will plunder resources and enslave other men. There's not much inherent decency in any of that, is it?
