The Devil's Laughter
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I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion.
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Once again, why is it such a problem in the US?
This country is more religious than most, at least on a superficial basis. The claim doesn't add up.
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Once again, why is it such a problem in the US?
This country is more religious than most, at least on a superficial basis. The claim doesn't add up.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Devil's Laughter:
Once again, why is it such a problem in the US?
This country is more religious than most, at least on a superficial basis. The claim doesn't add up.
Because the country is not religious. The mainlines are a mudpit of apostasy. Some of the Jews are, some are very secular. Muslims? I'm not sure. Buddhists? Hindu? You tell me...
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I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people. …
And you would be wrong. You can compare religious affiliation and church attendance with, say, most of Western Europe, and you’d see that significantly larger portion of Americans are affiliated with religions and significantly larger portion of Americans attend churches compare to Western Europeans. Yet we live with more gun violence in the USA than they do in Western Europe.
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I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
Yep, community definitely helps.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
That's one way to go about it. But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect. That's a recipe for disaster for their kids.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
If you want to do your best to ensure that your kids run as fast as they can toward the fringe left, all you have to do is (1) run a strict religious household, and (2) replace trying to understand your kids with forcing them to toe the line. What the hell difference does it make where they're "coming from"? Sinful is sinful and they need to be punished. Great way to screw them up for life.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
Yep, community definitely helps.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
That's one way to go about it. But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect. That's a recipe for disaster for their kids.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
If you want to do your best to ensure that your kids run as fast as they can toward the fringe left, all you have to do is (1) run a strict religious household, and (2) replace trying to understand your kids with forcing them to toe the line. What the hell difference does it make where they're "coming from"? Sinful is sinful and they need to be punished. Great way to screw them up for life.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
Yep, community definitely helps.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
That's one way to go about it. But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect. That's a recipe for disaster for their kids.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
If you want to do your best to ensure that your kids run as fast as they can toward the fringe left, all you have to do is (1) run a strict religious household, and (2) replace trying to understand your kids with forcing them to toe the line. What the hell difference does it make where they're "coming from"? Sinful is sinful and they need to be punished. Great way to screw them up for life.
I think you're wrong.
Children are not little adults. Their minds process things as a child would, not as an adult would. You teach them, you train them and you try to instill good values in them. I think those values can be found in a Bible, particularly the New Testament. I think it's important to lead your children, much through example, some through other ways. Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Does that always work? Mostly. You have to have the right touch on the reins; you have to know when to slack off and when to haul in. And you have to understand what works with what child...Some kids respond to one kind of correction, others to something else. Time-outs to a peach switch, everything has its place. Problem is, our current society has depended a lot more on Spocking than spanking, and I'm not convinced it's the better approach.
I don't see where that creates kids that run to the Far Left. Yes, most children are a lot more liberal when they are teenagers or when they are in their twenties, but a lot of those who have been raised with conservative values tend to drift back that way with age and wisdom. But even at that, we're trying to raise children to be good people, not political mini-me's.
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion.
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You're talking about Carrie's mom. In most religious households I know it's done gently and with love. It's not forced. That doesn't drive anyone anywhere.
The biggest thing a parent needs to understand is they are planting seeds that don't sprout immediately. You plant the seed, and you nurture it and nurture it and eventually it takes root. Sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes decades. But you will usually reap what you sow. The things you plant in a kid's head percolate around for a long age, but they are in there.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
I think it's a lack of religion, but it's also some of those non-religious qualities that church life can give, especially the small (50-100) and medium (101- 400) size congregations. It's that sense of community, sense of identity and sense of worth that attending and participating in church can give to young people.
Yep, community definitely helps.
A former pastor and I were talking Monday night. I was commenting on how well his garden had grown. My son and daughter were part of a fairly large youth group that he and the youth minister had shepherded for several years. Those kids have turned out well. Some working regular jobs, some in the trades, several college grads with a scattering of advanced degrees. But they all are working, productive members of society. Pretty much all are married, the vast majority still with their first spouse and are starting to move into leadership positions in their schools, communities and churches.
That's one way to go about it. But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect. That's a recipe for disaster for their kids.
As for the religious aspect...People need to know right from wrong. That certainly is taught at hone, but I think religion reinforces those ideas and values. It's not that people in the church are sinless or all good people...That's not true. What is true, is that at least they should know where they are wrong, so that they can try to do better.
If you want to do your best to ensure that your kids run as fast as they can toward the fringe left, all you have to do is (1) run a strict religious household, and (2) replace trying to understand your kids with forcing them to toe the line. What the hell difference does it make where they're "coming from"? Sinful is sinful and they need to be punished. Great way to screw them up for life.
I think you're wrong.
Children are not little adults. Their minds process things as a child would, not as an adult would. You teach them, you train them and you try to instill good values in them. I think those values can be found in a Bible, particularly the New Testament. I think it's important to lead your children, much through example, some through other ways. Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Does that always work? Mostly. You have to have the right touch on the reins; you have to know when to slack off and when to haul in. And you have to understand what works with what child...Some kids respond to one kind of correction, others to something else. Time-outs to a peach switch, everything has its place. Problem is, our current society has depended a lot more on Spocking than spanking, and I'm not convinced it's the better approach.
I don't see where that creates kids that run to the Far Left. Yes, most children are a lot more liberal when they are teenagers or when they are in their twenties, but a lot of those who have been raised with conservative values tend to drift back that way with age and wisdom. But even at that, we're trying to raise children to be good people, not political mini-me's.
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Please love yourself.
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You're talking about Carrie's mom. In most religious households I know it's done gently and with love. It's not forced. That doesn't drive anyone anywhere.
The biggest thing a parent needs to understand is they are planting seeds that don't sprout immediately. You plant the seed, and you nurture it and nurture it and eventually it takes root. Sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes decades. But you will usually reap what you sow. The things you plant in a kid's head percolate around for a long age, but they are in there.
@Mik said in The Devil's Laughter:
You're talking about Carrie's mom. In most religious households I know it's done gently and with love. It's not forced. That doesn't drive anyone anywhere.
I also work at Renn faires. Those places are absolutely chock full of very far liberal children of strict, religious, out-of-touch parents.
It's my estimation that it wasn't the strictness or the religion that drove them that way. It was that third. So no, I don't agree that lack of religion is the problem here.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
@Mik said in The Devil's Laughter:
Yeah, that dad forgot the first rule of parenting - your kids need to feel they have something to lose in the relationship. If all you do is put them down or disrespect them, they'll tune you out and you will never be let back in any significant way. You cannot control them. That's a myth. You can make sure you have influence. But you do that by giving, not demanding.
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.
That was just one example to illustrate a point. It's a very prevalent problem—so much so that a recent movie about it won an Academy Award. And this happens plenty in religious households.
Family estrangement's up in America. The research suggests it's not lack of morality that's the culprit. There's a disconnect between what a lot of parents think their job is (providing education and opportunities) and what the kids are looking for (understanding and acceptance).
I think it's important to be a lot more deliberate about this today. Used to be, misunderstood kids might just go out and become potheads. Now, they'll just simply die of fentanyl. Or want sex change operations at age 12 because they're at least getting "encouragement" from the wokes, which they think will fill the gap in belonging their parents left behind.
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@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier. All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier. All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Devil's Laughter:
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
But there are other legitimate ways to be productive that a lot of those kinds of people don't respect.
Want to flesh that one out a bit?I grew up in a pretty conservative area. I have a dozen examples of this that I could pull from, but I’ll stick with just one. A good friend of mine growing up had a Sheriff’s deputy as a father. He loved hunting, guns, football. His son, my friend, wasn’t like that. He liked soccer (a “faggit sport” according to his dad), had no use for hunting, and really disappointed his father when he got into photography. Kid built a fucking darkroom in his basement with money he made working restaurants in the summers, and all his dad could do was shake his head.
He internalized some of this. It made him a little weird and a little funny, but sometimes in a nasty sort of way. The only reason this kid didn’t go all crazy woke was because he had an understanding mother, and his father didn’t have all the power in the family. They both just chalked it up to “dad being dad” and he didn’t fully take his father’s horseshit “principles” to heart. Without his mom, it could’ve gone another way.
Oh and by the way, dad was plenty religious. My friend went to mass and Sunday school with me, every week, right up to confirmation. So lack of religion wasn’t the problem here. It was that his dad was an out-of-touch low EQ fucking dipshit.
I’m not talking about treating your kids as adults or parenting with a soft touch. I’m talking about knowing just what the fuck you’re doing. If your kid wants to get into something you don't value but has its own merits, you damn well better be supportive.
Oh and what about more difficult discussions? What if your kid thinks she's bi? What if she's just trying it out? I don't think there's any one right way to handle that. Some situations require a very firm hand, especially with some kids, and others not. Except to say that kids might not know much of anything, but they're plenty intuitive. They damn well better pick up from you that your love for them is driving your reaction, not your judgment, or welcome to family estrangement.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. There are no perfect families and you don't destroy what works for an occasional outlier.
This is not an occasional outlier, Jolly. This is a massive problem. There are far, far more radically left people out there who had out-of-touch religious parents than there are those who had little to no religious exposure. I've dealt with this personally, as has my wife, my cousins, the friends I grew up with, and the majority of the 15,800 people I deal with every weekend.
All you can do, is love your kids and do your best...But...I can think of worst things than family estrangement. I won't compromise some things, just to make my kids happy.
Yeah, you aren't getting it. It's not about compromising any values, or any authority.
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And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
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And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
And you don't understand my point, which is religion can bring structure, purpose and ethical boundaries to lives that would otherwise have none.
No, I got that and I agree. But if you do it in a tone-deaf kinda way, you're going to fail and the blame is going to be at your feet.
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Whose definition of tone-deaf? Parents? Children? Aunt Bea? Innocent bystanders?
Children rebel. The 1960's were writ large with it and I'm wondering if we're not now living through the same type of societal upheaval, driven by prosperity and willing Big Tech.
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Whose definition of tone-deaf? Parents? Children? Aunt Bea? Innocent bystanders?
Children rebel. The 1960's were writ large with it and I'm wondering if we're not now living through the same type of societal upheaval, driven by prosperity and willing Big Tech.
@Jolly said in The Devil's Laughter:
Whose definition of tone-deaf?
I made it as clear as I can. Gotta do your best to understand your kids, and follow Mik's rule about things they stand to lose by providing what's actually needed. If you want to keep playing games that's up to you.
