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  3. Roe & Casey overturned.

Roe & Casey overturned.

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  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

    It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

    taiwan_girlT Offline
    taiwan_girlT Offline
    taiwan_girl
    wrote on last edited by
    #114

    @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

    It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

    That is exactly what I am trying to say.

    The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

    JollyJ LarryL MikM 3 Replies Last reply
    • HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #115

      I imagine they would want to regulate nuclear weapons, which in theory could come in the shape of a gun.

      I probably just pulled a Godwin in the context of gun debates. Comparing to nuclear weapons. I’m such a noob.

      Education is extremely important.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

        @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

        It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

        That is exactly what I am trying to say.

        The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

        JollyJ Offline
        JollyJ Offline
        Jolly
        wrote on last edited by
        #116

        @taiwan_girl said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

        @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

        It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

        That is exactly what I am trying to say.

        The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

        The right for personal arms, in a sane person, is absolute. Period. No equivocation. Clear as day.

        Start your discussion, keeping that in mind.

        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

        1 Reply Last reply
        • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

          @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

          It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

          That is exactly what I am trying to say.

          The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

          LarryL Offline
          LarryL Offline
          Larry
          wrote on last edited by
          #117

          @taiwan_girl said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

          @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

          It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

          That is exactly what I am trying to say.

          The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

          Oh yes, the right to own and carry a gun IS absolute.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

            @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

            It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

            That is exactly what I am trying to say.

            The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

            MikM Offline
            MikM Offline
            Mik
            wrote on last edited by
            #118

            @taiwan_girl said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

            @jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

            It’s not absolute, it is subject to ‘time place and manner’ restrictions just like the freedom of speech. Court said as much last week.

            That is exactly what I am trying to say.

            The right for a gun is not absolute, and I do not think that the writers of the constitution meant that. OF course, since we cannot talk to them, impossible to say. Since they could not envision the weapons of today, who knows what their thoughts would be

            No, we cannot. We can simply refer to what they wrote, which is unambiguous. And it is not for a lack of verbosity on their part. The constitutional convention produced a very specific document and framework. Every single piece of it was painstakingly hammered out.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

            1 Reply Last reply
            • taiwan_girlT Offline
              taiwan_girlT Offline
              taiwan_girl
              wrote on last edited by
              #119

              @Jolly @Larry I tink we will have to agree to disagree.

              I just don't think that there are absolutes here. There are shades of gray.

              For example:
              *Amendment VIII

              Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.*

              What is excessive bail? $1 MM USD? If you are someone who has not savings, maybe $10000 is excessive? How can we have a $1MM bail for such a person? That seems to be against the constitution.

              Do you guys think that any weapon should be legally able to be owned by anyone?

              JollyJ LarryL 2 Replies Last reply
              • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

                @Jolly @Larry I tink we will have to agree to disagree.

                I just don't think that there are absolutes here. There are shades of gray.

                For example:
                *Amendment VIII

                Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.*

                What is excessive bail? $1 MM USD? If you are someone who has not savings, maybe $10000 is excessive? How can we have a $1MM bail for such a person? That seems to be against the constitution.

                Do you guys think that any weapon should be legally able to be owned by anyone?

                JollyJ Offline
                JollyJ Offline
                Jolly
                wrote on last edited by
                #120

                @taiwan_girl said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                @Jolly @Larry I tink we will have to agree to disagree.

                I just don't think that there are absolutes here. There are shades of gray.

                For example:
                *Amendment VIII

                Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.*

                What is excessive bail? $1 MM USD? If you are someone who has not savings, maybe $10000 is excessive? How can we have a $1MM bail for such a person? That seems to be against the constitution.

                Do you guys think that any weapon should be legally able to be owned by anyone?

                Excessive bail gets knocked down all the time. The biggest discussion right now, is the number of places requiring very little or no bail, and the subsequent crime spikes.

                And what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment? The Founders were very familiar with capital punishment and had no problem with it. They did have a problem with crucifixion, impalement, being drawn and quartered, etc.

                Should any weapon be owned by anyone? Remember, the Founders were rooted in a belief system that men had a right to self-defense. That self-defense extended to property and family. Self-defense has always involved the personal weapons of the day. Historically speaking, that would be long guns, handguns and edged weapons.

                So yes, if you wish to have an AR-15, a Glock, a shotgun or a Bowie knife and are a law-abiding citizen without a felony conviction, have at it.

                If you wish to possess a. 50 caliber BMG atop a Sherman tank with a 76mm main gun, and you can pass a FBI background check, be my guest.

                Most Americans will do none of the latter and probably a majority will never own more than one personal weapon. But it's not the government's business to restrict personal weapons for most citizens.

                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                1 Reply Last reply
                • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

                  @Jolly @Larry I tink we will have to agree to disagree.

                  I just don't think that there are absolutes here. There are shades of gray.

                  For example:
                  *Amendment VIII

                  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.*

                  What is excessive bail? $1 MM USD? If you are someone who has not savings, maybe $10000 is excessive? How can we have a $1MM bail for such a person? That seems to be against the constitution.

                  Do you guys think that any weapon should be legally able to be owned by anyone?

                  LarryL Offline
                  LarryL Offline
                  Larry
                  wrote on last edited by Larry
                  #121

                  @taiwan_girl said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                  @Jolly @Larry I tink we will have to agree to disagree.

                  I just don't think that there are absolutes here. There are shades of gray.

                  For example:
                  *Amendment VIII

                  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.*

                  What is excessive bail? $1 MM USD? If you are someone who has not savings, maybe $10000 is excessive? How can we have a $1MM bail for such a person? That seems to be against the constitution.

                  Do you guys think that any weapon should be legally able to be owned by anyone?

                  I'm aware what you think. But just because you think it doesn't make what you think correct. He Constitution is very clear - "Shall not be infringed". End. Of. Story. If you want to wander around looking for "shades of grey" the word "except" would need to be in that statement. It is not. Therefore, what you think simply doesn't matter. It says what it says "SHALL NOT be infringed."

                  It would help if you understood what the Constution was created for, and why. It is obvious to me that you do not.we were not "given" the right to bear arms by the Constitution.our right to bear arms existed already. After the Constitution was enacted into law, it was amended to clarify certain points, in this case, the right to own guns. We already had that right, it was a NATURAL RIGHT - the people wanted the Constitution amended to make that clear, not to "grant"us the right. The key words to the entire amendment are "Shall not be infringed".

                  N6n grey area. No "except". Just pure, unadulterated "before you guys came up with this new government we had a NATURAL RIGHT to own and possess any weapon we wanted to, and we won't agree to this new Constitution if you try to place a limit on that, PERIOD. So write it out clearly in case somewhere down the line someone pops up claiming they can limit our access to guns"

                  This means that if I want to go out any buy a Sherman tank, that is my right. Yes, I'm aware that over the years the leftwing "shades of grey" bull shit has chipped away at our rights and a lot of people have the view that the Constitution means whatever you happen to want it to mean. But the fact is, I have the natural right to buy a Sherman tank, and government does not have a right to stop me.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #122

                    They say that libertarian meetups eventually devolve into arguments over whether people should be allowed to own nuclear weapons.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • JollyJ Offline
                      JollyJ Offline
                      Jolly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #123

                      Dunno.

                      I do think the person was right, who said that the Constitution is a fence. Not to keep people out, but to keep the government in.

                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • George KG Offline
                        George KG Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #124

                        Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                        60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                        I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
                        • George KG George K

                          Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                          60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                          I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                          LuFins DadL Offline
                          LuFins DadL Offline
                          LuFins Dad
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #125

                          @George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                          Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                          60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                          I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                          Were they a biologist?

                          Beyond that, do we now need man laws made by men for men? Women laws made by women for women? How about white laws and black laws?

                          The Brad

                          George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                          • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                            @George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                            Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                            60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                            I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                            Were they a biologist?

                            Beyond that, do we now need man laws made by men for men? Women laws made by women for women? How about white laws and black laws?

                            George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #126

                            @LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                            Were they a biologist?

                            A nurse...

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                            • George KG George K

                              @LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                              Were they a biologist?

                              A nurse...

                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua Letifer
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #127

                              @George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                              @LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                              Were they a biologist?

                              A nurse...

                              If the abortion doc's a male, their argument kinda crumbles.

                              Please love yourself.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • CopperC Offline
                                CopperC Offline
                                Copper
                                wrote on last edited by Copper
                                #128

                                If the baby killed is male, their argument kinda crumbles.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • George KG George K

                                  Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                                  60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                                  I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                                  LuFins DadL Offline
                                  LuFins DadL Offline
                                  LuFins Dad
                                  wrote on last edited by LuFins Dad
                                  #129

                                  @George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:

                                  Posted by a "friend" on FB:

                                  60488994_10156434319853613_2177827553291534336_n.jpg

                                  I was that close to saying "Well, you didn't object in 1972, did you?"

                                  Did the nurse object last year when men passed laws that she had to take a vaccine into her body to keep her job?

                                  Does she make the same protest regarding prostitution laws? It’s her body… Drugs? Seatbelts?

                                  Of course, there’s also the whole point that women are lawmakers too. My bet is she also wishes that men passed laws about her body in 2009…

                                  The Brad

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Offline
                                    MikM Offline
                                    Mik
                                    wrote on last edited by Mik
                                    #130

                                    The responses to the decision have been fraught with sloppy thinking and Ill considered “points”.

                                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • CopperC Offline
                                      CopperC Offline
                                      Copper
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #131

                                      It is simple.

                                      It's not about a woman's body, it is about murder.

                                      This is one of the top 10 laws of all time.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • AxtremusA Offline
                                        AxtremusA Offline
                                        Axtremus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #132

                                        Profile of the most likely abortion patient:

                                        https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html

                                        THE TYPICAL PATIENT ...
                                        Is Already a Mother.
                                        Is in Her Late 20s.
                                        Attended Some College.
                                        Has a Low Income.
                                        Is Unmarried.
                                        Is in Her First 6 Weeks of Pregnancy.
                                        Is Having Her First Abortion.
                                        Lives in a Blue State.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nyc
                                          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                          #133

                                          Larry (and often Jolly) often suffer from is/ought confusion. Larry assumes that how he thinks the universe should be configured is how the universe is configured.

                                          The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

                                          Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

                                          And yet…. Time place and manner restrictions are allowed in each case.

                                          Only non-witches get due process.

                                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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