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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Texas shooting.

Texas shooting.

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  • H Offline
    H Offline
    Horace
    wrote on 27 May 2022, 21:24 last edited by
    #141

    Elementary school kids apparently do more active shooter drills than police forces do. There's no way the Uvalde cops were prepared for this by any forethought. This will be a learning moment for law enforcement organizations across the country. I would have assumed they didn't need this lesson.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • M Mik
      27 May 2022, 17:49

      So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

      alt text

      D Offline
      D Offline
      Doctor Phibes
      wrote on 28 May 2022, 03:43 last edited by
      #142

      @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

      So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

      alt text

      How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

      I was only joking

      H 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 10:22
      • D Doctor Phibes
        28 May 2022, 03:43

        @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

        So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

        alt text

        How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

        H Offline
        H Offline
        Horace
        wrote on 28 May 2022, 10:22 last edited by
        #143

        @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

        @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

        So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

        alt text

        How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

        The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

        Education is extremely important.

        J D 2 Replies Last reply 28 May 2022, 10:57
        • H Horace
          28 May 2022, 10:22

          @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

          So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

          alt text

          How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

          The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

          J Offline
          J Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on 28 May 2022, 10:57 last edited by jon-nyc
          #144

          @Horace Actually it is falsifiable. Blacks commit the overwhelming majority of mass shootings (>70%) despite being only 13% of the population.

          At least as defined by ‘4 or more people shot’.

          https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html

          It just is covered differently. Think of all the headlines like “8 people were shot in Chicago this weekend in two separate incidents involving firearms, including a young girl….”

          Another difference is that the lone white crazy guy sticks around and finishes off the wounded and is often prepared to confront police. The typical black shooter intends to lie low at grandma’s until everything blows over, so he runs at the first sign of sirens.

          Generalizing of course but that’s how it nets out in aggregate.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          H 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 14:56
          • H Horace
            28 May 2022, 10:22

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

            So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

            alt text

            How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

            The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

            D Offline
            D Offline
            Doctor Phibes
            wrote on 28 May 2022, 11:12 last edited by Doctor Phibes
            #145

            @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

            So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

            alt text

            How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

            The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

            In both cases, the facts are falsifiable, but the opinions that led to the claim remain, in spite of the facts. Jolly essentially said that even though the shooter wasn't trans, he believes that trans people shouldn't be allowed to own guns as they're all 'mentally ill'.

            'Mentally ill' is such a massively broad term. Hey, let's stop the 'mentally ill' from owning guns. Even if they show no additional threat? The subset of the mentally ill that actually constitute a threat is very small. Let's expel people who get in a fight! Seriously? How many people didn't get in a fight at school?

            How about let's expel teenagers with a disdain for authority? That would pretty effectively end school shootings, for sure, since homeschooling would become the norm, and good luck!

            I was only joking

            H 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 14:59
            • J Offline
              J Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote on 28 May 2022, 11:15 last edited by jon-nyc
              #146

              Case in point: Mass shooting in Chicago after buffalo and before ulvide. 9 people shot, 2 dead.

              Anyone even hear about it? Maybe George and Ken?

              Post and Times didn’t find it newsworthy.

              https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-mass-shooting-1-in-custody-after-2-killed-8-injured-in-shooting-in-gold-coast-neighborhood-police-say/2837660/?amp

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              1 Reply Last reply
              • D Offline
                D Offline
                Doctor Phibes
                wrote on 28 May 2022, 11:26 last edited by
                #147

                Pretty much everybody is blaming another group else, here, which is hardly a unique occurrence when bad things happen.

                I was only joking

                H 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 14:49
                • J Offline
                  J Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on 28 May 2022, 12:15 last edited by
                  #148

                  Admittedly, I haven't gone through the UPD response, but standard policy for most departments in a bad situation is to contain the shooter and let SWAT engage. I think in some instances, that is the wrong response, but I would like to know Uvalde's SOP for their SWAT team.

                  As for the NRA...Not near what it was. Firearm support is not as focused in that organization as it used to be and people who are focusing their frustration on them are doing nothing.

                  Over the past few days, I've given several practical things we can do to try to increase security at schools. others have chimed in with their thoughts. Some may work, some might not. After all, we're working with people and people don't always follow the rules.

                  But...At the end if the day, nobody can stop a determined person from killing other people, not if he is willing to die himself.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  C 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 12:24
                  • J Jolly
                    28 May 2022, 12:15

                    Admittedly, I haven't gone through the UPD response, but standard policy for most departments in a bad situation is to contain the shooter and let SWAT engage. I think in some instances, that is the wrong response, but I would like to know Uvalde's SOP for their SWAT team.

                    As for the NRA...Not near what it was. Firearm support is not as focused in that organization as it used to be and people who are focusing their frustration on them are doing nothing.

                    Over the past few days, I've given several practical things we can do to try to increase security at schools. others have chimed in with their thoughts. Some may work, some might not. After all, we're working with people and people don't always follow the rules.

                    But...At the end if the day, nobody can stop a determined person from killing other people, not if he is willing to die himself.

                    C Offline
                    C Offline
                    Catseye3
                    wrote on 28 May 2022, 12:24 last edited by Catseye3
                    #149

                    @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

                    But...At the end if the day, nobody can stop a determined person from killing other people, not if he is willing to die himself.

                    But it would sure be nice if these twists offed themselves before they took their rage out on others.

                    This message brought to you by Catseye3, Master of the Obvious.
                    ^

                    ETA: Shit, can I say Master???

                    Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                    I 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 13:13
                    • C Catseye3
                      28 May 2022, 12:24

                      @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

                      But...At the end if the day, nobody can stop a determined person from killing other people, not if he is willing to die himself.

                      But it would sure be nice if these twists offed themselves before they took their rage out on others.

                      This message brought to you by Catseye3, Master of the Obvious.
                      ^

                      ETA: Shit, can I say Master???

                      I Offline
                      I Offline
                      Ivorythumper
                      wrote on 28 May 2022, 13:13 last edited by
                      #150

                      @Catseye3 said in Texas shooting.:

                      ETA: Shit, can I say Master???

                      Only if you’re baiting someone….

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • A Offline
                        A Offline
                        Axtremus
                        wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:03 last edited by
                        #151

                        Texas Tribune article talking about proposals to "harden schools" with "single entrance" design:

                        https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/28/uvalde-shooting-school-doors/

                        J 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 14:56
                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:24 last edited by
                          #152

                          The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          A 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 16:08
                          • D Doctor Phibes
                            28 May 2022, 11:26

                            Pretty much everybody is blaming another group else, here, which is hardly a unique occurrence when bad things happen.

                            H Offline
                            H Offline
                            Horace
                            wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:49 last edited by
                            #153

                            @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

                            Pretty much everybody is blaming another group else, here, which is hardly a unique occurrence when bad things happen.

                            Actually those who blame the shooter are dismissed as not addressing the problem. There's no way to join the conversation without blaming some group, after that.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • J jon-nyc
                              28 May 2022, 10:57

                              @Horace Actually it is falsifiable. Blacks commit the overwhelming majority of mass shootings (>70%) despite being only 13% of the population.

                              At least as defined by ‘4 or more people shot’.

                              https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html

                              It just is covered differently. Think of all the headlines like “8 people were shot in Chicago this weekend in two separate incidents involving firearms, including a young girl….”

                              Another difference is that the lone white crazy guy sticks around and finishes off the wounded and is often prepared to confront police. The typical black shooter intends to lie low at grandma’s until everything blows over, so he runs at the first sign of sirens.

                              Generalizing of course but that’s how it nets out in aggregate.

                              H Offline
                              H Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:56 last edited by
                              #154

                              @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Horace Actually it is falsifiable. Blacks commit the overwhelming majority of mass shootings (>70%) despite being only 13% of the population.

                              At least as defined by ‘4 or more people shot’.

                              https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/us/americas-overlooked-gun-violence.html

                              It just is covered differently. Think of all the headlines like “8 people were shot in Chicago this weekend in two separate incidents involving firearms, including a young girl….”

                              Another difference is that the lone white crazy guy sticks around and finishes off the wounded and is often prepared to confront police. The typical black shooter intends to lie low at grandma’s until everything blows over, so he runs at the first sign of sirens.

                              Generalizing of course but that’s how it nets out in aggregate.

                              Point taken, but we should admit the difference in kind between gang shootings and school shootings. The motivations are completely different.

                              I was more referring to the blame on the white male patriarchy. Which is directly falsifiable by the fact that this shooter was not a white male. But such falsifiability is not possible.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • A Axtremus
                                28 May 2022, 14:03

                                Texas Tribune article talking about proposals to "harden schools" with "single entrance" design:

                                https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/28/uvalde-shooting-school-doors/

                                J Offline
                                J Offline
                                Jolly
                                wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:56 last edited by
                                #155

                                @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                Texas Tribune article talking about proposals to "harden schools" with "single entrance" design:

                                https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/28/uvalde-shooting-school-doors/

                                Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security. Entrance and egress were among his evaluation.

                                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                A 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 16:14
                                • D Doctor Phibes
                                  28 May 2022, 11:12

                                  @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                  @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

                                  @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                  So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

                                  alt text

                                  How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

                                  The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

                                  In both cases, the facts are falsifiable, but the opinions that led to the claim remain, in spite of the facts. Jolly essentially said that even though the shooter wasn't trans, he believes that trans people shouldn't be allowed to own guns as they're all 'mentally ill'.

                                  'Mentally ill' is such a massively broad term. Hey, let's stop the 'mentally ill' from owning guns. Even if they show no additional threat? The subset of the mentally ill that actually constitute a threat is very small. Let's expel people who get in a fight! Seriously? How many people didn't get in a fight at school?

                                  How about let's expel teenagers with a disdain for authority? That would pretty effectively end school shootings, for sure, since homeschooling would become the norm, and good luck!

                                  H Offline
                                  H Offline
                                  Horace
                                  wrote on 28 May 2022, 14:59 last edited by
                                  #156

                                  @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

                                  In both cases, the facts are falsifiable, but the opinions that led to the claim remain, in spite of the facts. Jolly essentially said that even though the shooter wasn't trans, he believes that trans people shouldn't be allowed to own guns as they're all 'mentally ill'.

                                  So? How is that an insistence on blaming trans people for this shooting? It's not. Nobody's dug into that claim. People just mistakenly believed this guy was trans, and their minds changed upon some fact checking.

                                  As for whether gender confusion is a mental illness, I daresay 99.9% of us wouldn't have sniffed that out as a bit of raging hatred if it'd been presented to us as a clinical, sterile idea 30 years ago. Now we've all been told and cajoled that that idea is a bit of raging hatred, and now most of us believe that that idea is a bit of raging hatred. That's how that works.

                                  Education is extremely important.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • M Mik
                                    28 May 2022, 14:24

                                    The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                    A Offline
                                    A Offline
                                    Axtremus
                                    wrote on 28 May 2022, 16:08 last edited by
                                    #157

                                    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                    The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                    I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

                                    Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

                                    M 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 16:19
                                    • J Jolly
                                      28 May 2022, 14:56

                                      @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                      Texas Tribune article talking about proposals to "harden schools" with "single entrance" design:

                                      https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/28/uvalde-shooting-school-doors/

                                      Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security. Entrance and egress were among his evaluation.

                                      A Offline
                                      A Offline
                                      Axtremus
                                      wrote on 28 May 2022, 16:14 last edited by
                                      #158

                                      @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

                                      Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security.

                                      How well does "executive security" translates to "public school security"?

                                      Security for a billionaire, his/her immediate family, and his/her entourage has got to have many significant differences than security for hundreds and thousands of public school children, right? The difference in cost of security $ per protected person has got to be huge, right?

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply 28 May 2022, 19:04
                                      • A Axtremus
                                        28 May 2022, 16:08

                                        @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                        The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                        I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

                                        Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

                                        M Offline
                                        M Offline
                                        Mik
                                        wrote on 28 May 2022, 16:19 last edited by
                                        #159

                                        @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                        The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                        I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

                                        Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

                                        Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

                                        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                        Aqua LetiferA A 2 Replies Last reply 28 May 2022, 16:36
                                        • M Mik
                                          28 May 2022, 16:19

                                          @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                          The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                          I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

                                          Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

                                          Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

                                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua Letifer
                                          wrote on 28 May 2022, 16:36 last edited by
                                          #160

                                          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                          @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                          The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

                                          I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

                                          Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

                                          Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

                                          What's your idea?

                                          Please love yourself.

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