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The New Coffee Room

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  3. The F-35 is too much to learn

The F-35 is too much to learn

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  • George KG Offline
    George KG Offline
    George K
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    A complicated aircraft:

    The F-35 is fast becoming the fighter jet of choice for many European air forces because of its technological and operational advantages over other available airframes.

    Eight European countries either operate the fifth-generation fighter jet or have placed orders for it. More countries are in discussions to acquire the jet in the near future.

    The increasing number of F-35s in Europe means more pilots will have to learn to fly the jet, but the F-35's technological superiority means some pilots, especially those trained to operate Soviet-made aircraft, could have difficulties making the change.

    Among NATO's 30 members, only Bulgaria, Poland, and Slovakia still operate Soviet-era aircraft.

    Of those three, Poland has the most, with 23 operational MiG-29s and 12 operational but obsolescent Su-22s. The rest of Poland's combat fleet consists of 36 US-made F-16s. In 2020, in an effort to modernize its air force, Warsaw ordered 32 F-35As, and it has an option to buy 16 more.

    The mix of Western-made and Soviet-origin aircraft reflects Poland's political history as a member of the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War and now as a member of NATO and the European Union.
    Yet that mix will also make it harder for Poland to integrate the F-35 into its fleet, according to Billie Flynn, a former Canadian air force lieutenant colonel who served as a senior F-35 test pilot.

    In an interview with The Aviationist, Flynn described ways Polish pilots might struggle to move between the aircraft.

    "There's very much the Russian, Eastern Bloc mentality vs. the Western F-16 cadre" in the Polish Air Force, and the pilots in each cadre do not cross between them, Flynn said.

    Flynn said any pilot would face a "leap" in transitioning to the F-35, one of only four fifth-generation jets in operation around the world.

    He added that F-16 pilots, or the Western cadre, in the Polish Air Force would be able to transition to the newer jet, as many pilots in other air forces with the F-35 have done, but the Polish Air Force's "Eastern Bloc" of pilots wouldn't be as fortunate.

    Asking even a very capable MiG-29 pilot "to transition to this cosmic spaceship is far too much to grasp," Flynn said, referring to the F-35.

    Differences in mentality

    The F-16 and the MiG-29 are comparable in terms of capabilities.

    Though the MiG-29 is primarily an air-superiority fighter and the F-16 a multirole aircraft, both are fourth-generation fighters. The Soviet jet was in fact built as a response to the American F-16 and F-15.

    But transitioning from that Soviet-made jet to modern US fighters requires more than learning new capabilities. It also requires adjusting to a different design philosophy, which Flynn argues makes such a transition practically impossible.

    "Every part of how we mechanize the aircraft in the West is different from how Russians design their aircraft — every part of philosophy of how you fly an airplane, how you design cockpits, how you process information is different," Flynn told The Aviationist.

    In contrast, both the F-16 and the F-35 are designed and built by Lockheed Martin, and Flynn described the stealth fighter as a "logical step forward" from the older aircraft.

    "To say to an F-16 pilot, hey, we're Lockheed Martin, and we build the aircraft the certain way, and switches the certain way, and now we're going to give you the next generation of that, there's a logic flow of our design, of the F-16, as the baseline, that kind of looks like what the F-35 is," Flynn said. "That does not exist for the MiG cadre."

    Regardless of whether the MiG-29 pilots can make the jump to the new era, their aircraft are approaching obsolescence.

    Poland, Bulgaria, and Slovakia already struggle to keep their MiG-29s up to date. Poland has maintained its MiG-29 contingent on par with that of its F-16, but as time and worsening relations with Russia make replacement airframes and machine parts harder to find, the last three NATO MiG-29 operators are slowly phasing out the aircraft.

    "I think the MiG cadre will end up atrophying, spending their time in that jet until the MiG-29 phases out," Flynn said of the Polish Air Force.

    With militaries embracing the F-35 and other advanced jets, "there is no place for the MiG-29 pilots in the sophisticated world of" fifth-generation aircraft, he added.

    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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    • JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Transition your Russian plane pilots to the F-16's and transition the F-16 guys to the F-35.

      And hey, let our zoomies go over there and train the crap out of them.

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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      • JollyJ Offline
        JollyJ Offline
        Jolly
        wrote on last edited by Jolly
        #3

        alt text

        Ain't like we don't have any F-16's in the boneyard...

        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

        George KG 1 Reply Last reply
        • JollyJ Jolly

          alt text

          Ain't like we don't have any F-16's in the boneyard...

          George KG Offline
          George KG Offline
          George K
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          @Jolly said in The F-35 is too much to learn:

          Ain't like we don't have any F-16's in the boneyard...

          How long does it take to get a F-16 (or other plane) airworthy after being in the boneyard?

          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • JollyJ Offline
            JollyJ Offline
            Jolly
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            They brought a B-52 back to Barksdale not too long ago. It had been in the boneyard for over a decade and it took a few months.

            I suspect if a plane had been in storage only a few years and restoration to flight status was a priority, TAT would be measured in weeks, not months.

            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

            1 Reply Last reply
            • JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              BTW, the F-16 production line in South Carolina is still working on orders for foreign governments. Modernization of older F-16's is still done back at the old Texas plant.

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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