Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.
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Actually, I think it was @Copper that made a valid point.
The presence of nuclear weapons, or at least the threat of them, in Cuba came close to triggering WWIII.
Having (almost) all of Russia's western border be NATO-aligned countries can be seen as a threat.
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Actually, I think it was @Copper that made a valid point.
The presence of nuclear weapons, or at least the threat of them, in Cuba came close to triggering WWIII.
Having (almost) all of Russia's western border be NATO-aligned countries can be seen as a threat.
@George-K said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
Actually, I think it was @Copper that made a valid point.
The presence of nuclear weapons, or at least the threat of them, in Cuba came close to triggering WWIII.
Having (almost) all of Russia's western border be NATO-aligned countries can be seen as a threat.
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
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@George-K said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
Actually, I think it was @Copper that made a valid point.
The presence of nuclear weapons, or at least the threat of them, in Cuba came close to triggering WWIII.
Having (almost) all of Russia's western border be NATO-aligned countries can be seen as a threat.
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
@Aqua-Letifer said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
Please don't think that I'm opposed to Finland's joining NATO. Given the unprovoked hostilities in Ukraine, it's totally the right thing to do. Also, considering the history of Finland and the USSR, it's not surprising that they want to join. I would do the same thing. I expect Sweden to do so as well.
But, here's an interesting question.
The finalization of membership will not take place overnight. More likely, it won't be until the end of the year. So, if Vlad does something stupid, and Finland's not yet a member, what's NATO to do? Stand by because Finland is not one of them yet? If NATO does do something, what's Zelenski going to think, "Hey, they're not members and you come to their aid? What about me, bro?"
I suppose NATO could justify it by saying, "Well, the process has started, and we're committed, so..."
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
Please don't think that I'm opposed to Finland's joining NATO. Given the unprovoked hostilities in Ukraine, it's totally the right thing to do. Also, considering the history of Finland and the USSR, it's not surprising that they want to join. I would do the same thing. I expect Sweden to do so as well.
But, here's an interesting question.
The finalization of membership will not take place overnight. More likely, it won't be until the end of the year. So, if Vlad does something stupid, and Finland's not yet a member, what's NATO to do? Stand by because Finland is not one of them yet? If NATO does do something, what's Zelenski going to think, "Hey, they're not members and you come to their aid? What about me, bro?"
I suppose NATO could justify it by saying, "Well, the process has started, and we're committed, so..."
@George-K said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
Please don't think that I'm opposed to Finland's joining NATO. Given the unprovoked hostilities in Ukraine, it's totally the right thing to do. Also, considering the history of Finland and the USSR, it's not surprising that they want to join. I would do the same thing. I expect Sweden to do so as well.
But, here's an interesting question.
The finalization of membership will not take place overnight. More likely, it won't be until the end of the year. So, if Vlad does something stupid, and Finland's not yet a member, what's NATO to do? Stand by because Finland is not one of them yet? If NATO does do something, what's Zelenski going to think, "Hey, they're not members and you come to their aid? What about me, bro?"
I suppose NATO could justify it by saying, "Well, the process has started, and we're committed, so..."
The UK already forced our hand. They're drafting shit up right now that ensures Britain will come to the aid of Finland while membership is being finalized.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
As opposed to what, though? The only way to prevent WWIII is to ignore Russia, let it do what it wants? Everyone acts as if war crimes aren't being acted out regularly? No one defends themselves against a country invading its neighbors?
I mean really, what should Finland actually do?
Please don't think that I'm opposed to Finland's joining NATO. Given the unprovoked hostilities in Ukraine, it's totally the right thing to do. Also, considering the history of Finland and the USSR, it's not surprising that they want to join. I would do the same thing. I expect Sweden to do so as well.
But, here's an interesting question.
The finalization of membership will not take place overnight. More likely, it won't be until the end of the year. So, if Vlad does something stupid, and Finland's not yet a member, what's NATO to do? Stand by because Finland is not one of them yet? If NATO does do something, what's Zelenski going to think, "Hey, they're not members and you come to their aid? What about me, bro?"
I suppose NATO could justify it by saying, "Well, the process has started, and we're committed, so..."
That is precisely why BoJo signed the those two mutual assistance pacts with Finland and Sweden this past week. If Putin were to make a move against Finland now that its intentions to join NATO are public and formal application is imminent, it would open the door to direct involvement against a NATO. Smart move on the part of NATO - you can be assured the UK did not perform this unilaterally without consultation -since there is a real chance Hungary and, as of today, Turkey, could be spoilers in Finland and Sweden’s application.
Any move now against Finland puts Moscow in check.
Turkey not in favour of Sweden and Finland:
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@George-K said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
...every independent nation maximizes its security
Not really. Sometimes, certain political parties in independent democratic nations gather votes by intentionally minimizing the nation's security.
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That was decently played on Finland's part.
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Turkey has now stated it will not block either Finland or Sweden from becoming NATO members.
Putin wanted less NATO as a war aim and is now getting even more NATO than he ever imagined.
All I can say is, sad Christmas for Putin.
Elbows up!
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Turkey has now stated it will not block either Finland or Sweden from becoming NATO members.
Putin wanted less NATO as a war aim and is now getting even more NATO than he ever imagined.
All I can say is, sad Christmas for Putin.
@Renauda said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
Turkey has now stated it will not block either Finland or Sweden from becoming NATO members.
Somewhere I read that one country can block other nations from joining. This is a good thing.
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This just has to be the end of Putin. He has set his nation back decades in every imaginable way.
@Mik and also Renauda:
It is amazing, how people so often fail to recognize the catalytic consequences of their actions. "So-and-so is doing X, so I will thwart him by doing Y," not considering that so-and-so might change as a result of my Y.
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
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Turkey has now stated it will not block either Finland or Sweden from becoming NATO members.
Putin wanted less NATO as a war aim and is now getting even more NATO than he ever imagined.
All I can say is, sad Christmas for Putin.
@Renauda said in Looks like Finland will apply for NATO membership.:
Turkey has now stated it will not block either Finland or Sweden from becoming NATO members.
Putin wanted less NATO as a war aim and is now getting even more NATO than he ever imagined.
All I can say is, sad Christmas for Putin.
Wonder what the Turks got in return?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Mik and also Renauda:
It is amazing, how people so often fail to recognize the catalytic consequences of their actions. "So-and-so is doing X, so I will thwart him by doing Y," not considering that so-and-so might change as a result of my Y.
My spouse has a theory that all this would have been gamed out beforehand and that Putin will now proceed to launch a internal blood purge to rid the country of imagined enemies of the people reminiscent of Stalin.
It is plausible and he may attempt such at the top but I doubt that it would be without concerted and determined opposition from within unlike the 1930’s.
Elbows up!
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We are really going through the looking glass here. Now Putin says NATO expansion is no big deal - no threat to Russia.
