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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • MikM Mik

    Not a cheery article. I can't help but wonder where we would be if the west had supported Ukraine more whole-heartedly. All for using the frozen Russian assets.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/zelensky-is-losing-touch-with-reality/ar-AA1QGvyu

    RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote last edited by
    #3000

    @Mik

    Not cheery but as one observer I read pointed out:

    To be clear, the fact Ukraine’s investigators — and its raucous free press — are absolutely going to town on elites is itself evidence of a living, breathing (if coughing) democracy worth defending. One need only glance over the border to recall the alternative.

    Can anyone send us the link to Russia’s credible investigation after the Panama Papers exposed Putin’s billions? Or how his best friend (Roldugin) earned billions playing a cello? (dude must be awesome). Or why the guy who made a two-hour documentary on Putin’s $1.4 billion Black Sea mega-palace ended up dead in a Putin prison?

    The absence of scandal in an autocracy is often just a symptom of its silent, dehumanising condition. And inversely (if uncomfortably), the presence of scandal in a democracy often just reflects the messy but sacred human agency underneath. And that’s worth fighting for, everywhere, every time.

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Away
      MikM Away
      Mik
      wrote last edited by
      #3001

      Good observation.

      "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
      • MikM Mik

        Good observation.

        RenaudaR Offline
        RenaudaR Offline
        Renauda
        wrote last edited by
        #3002

        @Mik

        I thought so as well.

        I’m the meantime, I have nothing to say about the past 24 hrs of hearsay surrounding Moscow’s and Dim Philby’s (Witkoff the dummkopf) latest terms of unconditional surrender being laid out before the embattled Ukrainian nation.

        Elbows up!

        1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Away
          MikM Away
          Mik
          wrote last edited by
          #3003

          Oh, the cash for land, but you really still own it? Absurd to the point of surreal.

          "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

          1 Reply Last reply
          • RenaudaR Offline
            RenaudaR Offline
            Renauda
            wrote last edited by Renauda
            #3004

            Surreal is right. I really cannot comprehend how the US could even table the alleged terms for the Ukranians’ consideration.

            Elbows up!

            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Away
              MikM Away
              Mik
              wrote last edited by
              #3005

              He's just throwing shit against the wall to see if anything sticks.

              "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote last edited by Renauda
                #3006

                I don’t believe that for a minute. War diplomacy is not a jam session to see what sticks to the wall.

                Elbows up!

                1 Reply Last reply
                • MikM Away
                  MikM Away
                  Mik
                  wrote last edited by Mik
                  #3007

                  Normally, no, it isn't. but we're pretty short on normal here. I don't think Trump can conceive of someone NOT wanting to make a deal.

                  "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote last edited by Renauda
                    #3008

                    You may be right… after all, Trump still thinks Putin is his trusted friend. 🙄

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Away
                      MikM Away
                      Mik
                      wrote last edited by
                      #3009

                      I don’t think he believes it, he just tries to sell it. With normal humans it may have value, but Putin is not by any means a normal human.

                      "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote last edited by
                        #3010

                        While he’s trying to sell it (or something to whom, no one knows for certain), Putin is slowly drowning him in a spoonful of water.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • MikM Away
                          MikM Away
                          Mik
                          wrote last edited by
                          #3011

                          Indeed. Why should he quit? He still has at least a tenuous hold on Russia and in a war of attrition he will probably win. Not a bad approach if you don't care how many Russians you lose.

                          "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • RenaudaR Offline
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote last edited by
                            #3012

                            With Putin, it is never about the mass expenditure of human capital. In fact I am sure he adheres religiously to Stalin’s alleged quote:

                            "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.”

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • MikM Away
                              MikM Away
                              Mik
                              wrote last edited by
                              #3013

                              Those who forget history....

                              (applies to all parties)

                              "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • AxtremusA Offline
                                AxtremusA Offline
                                Axtremus
                                wrote last edited by
                                #3014

                                https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/world/europe/ukraine-russia-us-peace-plan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.208.qP_m.hyCR3PeKDQ8T

                                The 28-point proposal [from the USA] favors Russia in pivotal aspects, including requiring Ukraine to cede territory and cap the size of its postwar army, while offering financial and geopolitical incentives to Moscow.

                                @Renauda ... your thoughts?

                                RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                • MikM Away
                                  MikM Away
                                  Mik
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #3015

                                  It’s delusional.

                                  "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                                  W 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Mik

                                    It’s delusional.

                                    W Offline
                                    W Offline
                                    Wim
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #3016

                                    @Mik Sheer madness.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • AxtremusA Axtremus

                                      https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/world/europe/ukraine-russia-us-peace-plan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.208.qP_m.hyCR3PeKDQ8T

                                      The 28-point proposal [from the USA] favors Russia in pivotal aspects, including requiring Ukraine to cede territory and cap the size of its postwar army, while offering financial and geopolitical incentives to Moscow.

                                      @Renauda ... your thoughts?

                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      Renauda
                                      wrote last edited by Renauda
                                      #3017

                                      @Axtremus said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/world/europe/ukraine-russia-us-peace-plan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.208.qP_m.hyCR3PeKDQ8T

                                      The 28-point proposal [from the USA] favors Russia in pivotal aspects, including requiring Ukraine to cede territory and cap the size of its postwar army, while offering financial and geopolitical incentives to Moscow.

                                      @Renauda ... your thoughts?

                                      I don’t think there’s much in it that I didn’t already anticipate in one form or another. It certainly rewards Putin’s unprovoked aggression of the past eleven years against Ukraine. It also gives Putin the time and opportunity he needs in order to finish off the country once and for all at a future date of his choosing. Think of it as a 21 century version of the Ribbentrop Molotov pact. It is not a lasting or just peace for Ukraine but rather a temporary non aggression pact between Russia and the US. It is nothing more than an armistice on Moscow’s maximalist terms that no one outside of the Kremlin or the Oval Office can like or trust.

                                      In the meantime, here is a link to Lawrence Friedman’s excellent analysis of what we know:

                                      https://open.substack.com/pub/samf/p/the-witkoff-dmitriev-peace-plan-annotated?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

                                      Elbows up!

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • RenaudaR Offline
                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        Renauda
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #3018

                                        According to this former Russian diplomat, Putin will not accept the 28 point plan either because it is too generous to Kyiv and gives too much power to the POTUS:

                                        The final section of the plan is especially revealing: it puts forward the establishment of a so-called “Peace Council” led by President Donald Trump to oversee compliance. This arrangement is utterly unacceptable to Putin, as it places Trump in the position of supervising and assessing the Russian leader’s actions. Putin is waging war to prove that he has an equal right to shape global decisions alongside the U.S. president and other world leaders. He is fighting for imagined respect, for a status of equality — or primacy, even — among global actors. In this worldview, putting anyone above himself, especially someone as unpredictable as Trump, would be humiliating and a signal of weakness.

                                        https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/11/21/trumps-peace-plan-favors-russia-putin-still-wont-accept-it-a91209

                                        Elbows up!

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Away
                                          MikM Away
                                          Mik
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #3019

                                          That makes perfect sense if you are Vlad. All he has to do is keep dancing, pretending to be interested in peace plans and continue what he wants to do anyway. At the very least he will garner ever more concessions with each iteration.

                                          "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

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