The Ukraine war thread
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
No - we came up with a system after WW2 where we really took the helm on guiding global geo-politics.
I grew up in that framework.
I have no particular compassion for Ukrainians as humans, as bad as that is to say. Because that would be hypocritical. I don’t really take much time out of my day to think about wars in Africa.
But - I thought I knew the rules of the game. We live in a society. We all live by social rules.
The US payed a lot to be in the position that it’s been in, but it’s also gotten a lot of benefits (this is the best country in the world and many people here don’t appreciate that at all)
This is already getting really wordy. But I liked that social order and America’s place in it. Others don’t and I can respect that. Trump hasn’t outlined any new doctrine clearly about America’s place in the world. I wish he would - because I suspect his ideals aren’t the same as mine.
If nothing else is obvious, I hope that it's at least obvious that there were no clear rules and playbook that America and NATO should have followed here, with nuclear conflict looming as a possible result of any pat virtue answers about thwarting imperialistic aggression.
I continue to believe that the only way to actually reduce danger of annihilation in the long term is to have and live up to a set of values that we would like the rest of the world to.
Else it’s just purely power that rules at the end of the day - so many the left was right after all.
I’m realize this is a very Pollyanna POV
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
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@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
Now we're just going in circles. That ends with Russia in Kiev.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
Now we're just going in circles. That ends with Russia in Kiev.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
Now we're just going in circles. That ends with Russia in Kiev.
As a thoroughly depleted husk of itself, militarily. They’re going to end up there anyways if we don’t do anything.
But they’re our top 2 adversary. Isn’t it good for us if they’re weak. Plus they understand the cost of what it took (probably not worth it for them).
Might be half a trillion in the long run, but we spent like $20T on Afghanistan for way worse outcomes than we’ve already got here. I’m willing to chip my taxes in for that.
In the long run everyone can wean themselves off of them economically. Seems better than this.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon It's an unactionable point of view, unless you come right out and say, yes, escalate. Which is fine. Just say it, and stop hiding behind the "values" rhetoric.
Then you can have some skin in the game as, inevitably, the world tilts, at least just a little bit, towards nuclear conflict. See how it feels to have some skin in that game. This virtue rhetoric is too easy.
What’s the unactionable part? You arm Ukrainians until they no longer want to fight. We’ve been doing that for the last few years.
Now we're just going in circles. That ends with Russia in Kiev.
As a thoroughly depleted husk of itself, militarily. They’re going to end up there anyways if we don’t do anything.
But they’re our top 2 adversary. Isn’t it good for us if they’re weak. Plus they understand the cost of what it took (probably not worth it for them).
Might be half a trillion in the long run, but we spent like $20T on Afghanistan for way worse outcomes than we’ve already got here. I’m willing to chip my taxes in for that.
In the long run everyone can wean themselves off of them economically. Seems better than this.
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Sam Harris weighs in:
That was a mortifying spectacle in the Oval Office today. We witnessed President Trump acting like a handmaiden to a Russian dictator, while processing everything—US foreign policy, world history, the fate of millions—through the lens of his own grandiosity, pettiness, and personal grievances. Trump is siding with a man who has all but threatened us with nuclear annihilation over our support for an independent Ukraine. Putin's troops have routinely subjected Ukrainian POWs to torture. They have stolen tens of thousands of Ukrainian children and repatriated them to Russia. And we now have President and Vice President who blame the victims for all the misery and death that has been imposed on them (and for not saying “thank you” when they do this). Where do we go to get our country's moral stature back?
Education is extremely important.
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Have now watched and listened to the exchange a few more times. Firstly, Zelenskyi ought not to have been using English, he should have resorted to either Ukrainian or his mother tongue, Russian. By using English he came across as lecturing Vance on Putin’s duplicity and perfidy in diplomacy. Vance was triggered. Trump in his capacity as host and chair, failed utterly to bring his VP into line, calm the waves and bring the meeting to an immediate end.
As pointed out Putin is the sole winner of the day and now probably the war.
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To Republicans:
Is this the Commander in Chief you voted for, or has he turned out to be something very different to your expectations?
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Sam Harris weighs in:
That was a mortifying spectacle in the Oval Office today. We witnessed President Trump acting like a handmaiden to a Russian dictator, while processing everything—US foreign policy, world history, the fate of millions—through the lens of his own grandiosity, pettiness, and personal grievances. Trump is siding with a man who has all but threatened us with nuclear annihilation over our support for an independent Ukraine. Putin's troops have routinely subjected Ukrainian POWs to torture. They have stolen tens of thousands of Ukrainian children and repatriated them to Russia. And we now have President and Vice President who blame the victims for all the misery and death that has been imposed on them (and for not saying “thank you” when they do this). Where do we go to get our country's moral stature back?
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
We witnessed President Trump acting like a handmaiden to a Russian dictator
Handmaidens to Russian dictators don't put a show like that on live TV.
As Mr. Trump said, during the mortifying spectacle, he wanted the American people to see that.
Mr. Trump welcomes you all to the USA.
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To Republicans:
Is this the Commander in Chief you voted for, or has he turned out to be something very different to your expectations?
@AndyD said in The Ukraine war thread:
To Republicans:
Is this the Commander in Chief you voted for, or has he turned out to be something very different to your expectations?
I would not have expected Trump to back down from the push-back from Zelensky.
I really wish Zelensky had been more deferential. While the Trump haters will be indulging in their orgy of blaming Trump for all of this, Zelensky made some very obvious choices, and now we will watch the consequences.
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
Which of his sentences do you disagree with?
Sam's not here to defend himself, so I am honor bound not to respond.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
Which of his sentences do you disagree with?
Sam's not here to defend himself, so I am honor bound not to respond.
Out of curiosity, where did you find that? Do you subscribe to his substack?
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
Which of his sentences do you disagree with?
Sam's not here to defend himself, so I am honor bound not to respond.
Out of curiosity, where did you find that? Do you subscribe to his substack?
