The Ukraine war thread
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
"He was angry" sounds a lot like "I know he said dumb things, but he was angry".
Well, the guy saying the really dumb things was the one in the middle. And he always sounds angry. And Vance trying to play the victim was ridiculous 'You haven't said thank you', honestly it was horrible.
Sure, Zelensky could have played it better. But nobody came out of that looking good, and it started going downhill with Vance.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace - if Zelenky thought, because of private interactions or his best assessment of the situation, that Trump is 100% full of shit.
Let’s assume that. Then would it be a good course of action to try to expose him?
Well, I listened to the conversation, and I don't have any idea what proof you think Zelensky offered about Trump being 100% full of shit. I heard some detailed history of Russia being a bad-faith actor in negotiations and agreements, which goes back to Obama. Is that a nail in the coffin of Trump's credibility?
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I have no proof. I’m just saying - if Zelensky thought, through his own evidence or assessment - that Trump was full of shit, this might be a rational way to act.
I mean I don’t believe a word he says. I wouldn’t bet my country on his word. I know he doesn’t have many good alternatives…. Europe I guess?
Maybe that’s the next claim of 4D chess. Trump did this to get the Europeans to play more. How magnanimous he is - makes himself look bad for the good of the world.
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Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
It was actually cringey how much of a baby the American President looked like here.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I was only joking
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Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
Trump does give a shit about Ukraine. I take him at his word on that.
He’s definitely anti-war.
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@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I predict that thinking Zelensky acted stupidly will be the mainstream viewpoint, outside Trump hating circles.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
Trump does give a shit about Ukraine. I take him at his word on that.
He’s definitely anti-war.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
I think that is a fanciful and unbelievable hypothetical.
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Trump is the Commander-in-Chief. Like the Roman Centurian in the Bible, soldiers come when he says come and go when he says go. Since he also is the Executive, he also has a large say in when and how funds are spent.
Zelensky and the rest of y'all can howl at the moon, if you choose, but unless Europe does something totally out of character, Ukraine remains a country only with U.S. help.
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Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
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Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
Education is extremely important.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I predict that thinking Zelensky acted stupidly will be the mainstream viewpoint, outside Trump hating circles.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I predict that thinking Zelensky acted stupidly will be the mainstream viewpoint, outside Trump hating circles.
What I didn't really understand was why they felt the need to have the discussion in front of everybody.
My self-appointed mainstream viewpoint speaking on behalf of the silent majority as I do, is that the person who won that argument was Vladimir Putin.
I was only joking
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Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
You don't hold the cards right now - DJT.
And then they cut the meeting short and showed Zelensky the door.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
No - we came up with a system after WW2 where we really took the helm on guiding global geo-politics.
I grew up in that framework.
I have no particular compassion for Ukrainians as humans, as bad as that is to say. Because that would be hypocritical. I don’t really take much time out of my day to think about wars in Africa.
But - I thought I knew the rules of the game. We live in a society. We all live by social rules.
The US payed a lot to be in the position that it’s been in, but it’s also gotten a lot of benefits (this is the best country in the world and many people here don’t appreciate that at all)
This is already getting really wordy. But I liked that social order and America’s place in it. Others don’t and I can respect that. Trump hasn’t outlined any new doctrine clearly about America’s place in the world. I wish he would - because I suspect his ideals aren’t the same as mine.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
You don't hold the cards right now - DJT.
And then they cut the meeting short and showed Zelensky the door.
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
You don't hold the cards right now - DJT.
And then they cut the meeting short and showed Zelensky the door.
That’s news to no one. Who didn’t know that Ukraine can’t take on Russia by itself? Did we need Trump to clarify that arcane knowledge for us? Everyone was gobsmacked they lasted more than 3 days.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I predict that thinking Zelensky acted stupidly will be the mainstream viewpoint, outside Trump hating circles.
What I didn't really understand was why they felt the need to have the discussion in front of everybody.
My self-appointed mainstream viewpoint speaking on behalf of the silent majority as I do, is that the person who won that argument was Vladimir Putin.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread
My self-appointed mainstream viewpoint speaking on behalf of the silent majority as I do, is that the person who won that argument was Vladimir Putin.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't?
If we take Vice President BetaFace at his word, then yes.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
No - we came up with a system after WW2 where we really took the helm on guiding global geo-politics.
I grew up in that framework.
I have no particular compassion for Ukrainians as humans, as bad as that is to say. Because that would be hypocritical. I don’t really take much time out of my day to think about wars in Africa.
But - I thought I knew the rules of the game. We live in a society. We all live by social rules.
The US payed a lot to be in the position that it’s been in, but it’s also gotten a lot of benefits (this is the best country in the world and many people here don’t appreciate that at all)
This is already getting really wordy. But I liked that social order and America’s place in it. Others don’t and I can respect that. Trump hasn’t outlined any new doctrine clearly about America’s place in the world. I wish he would - because I suspect his ideals aren’t the same as mine.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
Everyone is gonna post-hoc rationalize the way they wanna.
I agree with you that this will play well with Trump supporters, because they couldn’t care less about Ukraine.
To be clear, you think there is a categorical difference between you and Trump supporters, in that you have compassion for beset upon other countries, while they don't? And your compassion leads you unerringly to the truth that America should deploy its military to correct such unfair situations in the world?
No - we came up with a system after WW2 where we really took the helm on guiding global geo-politics.
I grew up in that framework.
I have no particular compassion for Ukrainians as humans, as bad as that is to say. Because that would be hypocritical. I don’t really take much time out of my day to think about wars in Africa.
But - I thought I knew the rules of the game. We live in a society. We all live by social rules.
The US payed a lot to be in the position that it’s been in, but it’s also gotten a lot of benefits (this is the best country in the world and many people here don’t appreciate that at all)
This is already getting really wordy. But I liked that social order and America’s place in it. Others don’t and I can respect that. Trump hasn’t outlined any new doctrine clearly about America’s place in the world. I wish he would - because I suspect his ideals aren’t the same as mine.
If nothing else is obvious, I hope that it's at least obvious that there were no clear rules and playbook that America and NATO should have followed here, with nuclear conflict looming as a possible result of any pat virtue answers about thwarting imperialistic aggression.
