The Ukraine war thread
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I will await patiently for anybody to give any thought to the choices Zelensky made in that conversation, and their practical effect.
We can stipulate for the purposes of the conversation that Trump is the bad guy, and maybe think around that for a moment, to touch on practical effects.
Just kidding, the usual suspects will not be capable of that, with the exception of Renauda.
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It kind of doesn’t matter. People have a sense of what’s right. If they feel like they’re getting bullied, they’ll often yell “fuck you” back to them even if it means they get punched in the face.
Life isn’t always an accounting exercise.
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
I was only joking
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It kind of doesn’t matter. People have a sense of what’s right. If they feel like they’re getting bullied, they’ll often yell “fuck you” back to them even if it means they get punched in the face.
Life isn’t always an accounting exercise.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
It kind of doesn’t matter. People have a sense of what’s right. If they feel like they’re getting bullied, they’ll often yell “fuck you” back to them even if it means they get punched in the face.
Life isn’t always an accounting exercise.
It doesn't matter, huh. Interesting perspective. The practical effects of where this leads to, matter. They matter regardless of any puffery about knowing what's right.
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
No, I thought Vance was caught off balance, and seemed hesitant about what to say. Trump just got puffy and indignant.
I will continue to wait patiently for anybody to think about whether zelenksy's choices in the conversation were wise.
My best hope is that it will be water under the bridge.
Education is extremely important.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
No, I thought Vance was caught off balance, and seemed hesitant about what to say. Trump just got puffy and indignant.
I will continue to wait patiently for anybody to think about whether zelenksy's choices in the conversation were wise.
My best hope is that it will be water under the bridge.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
I will continue to wait patiently for anybody to think about whether zelenksy's choices in the conversation were wise.
Well, Vance jumped in and accused him of being disrespectful. He hadn't been disrespectful in any way up until that point, and then Vance jumped in sounding like a guy in a high school debate. Z's country is being ripped apart, and he has to put up with those two guys trying to score really quite petty political points. I'd be pissed if I was him, too.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
"He was angry" sounds a lot like "I know he said dumb things, but he was angry".
Well, the guy saying the really dumb things was the one in the middle. And he always sounds angry. And Vance trying to play the victim was ridiculous 'You haven't said thank you', honestly it was horrible.
Sure, Zelensky could have played it better. But nobody came out of that looking good, and it started going downhill with Vance.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
"He was angry" sounds a lot like "I know he said dumb things, but he was angry".
Well, the guy saying the really dumb things was the one in the middle. And he always sounds angry. And Vance trying to play the victim was ridiculous 'You haven't said thank you', honestly it was horrible.
Sure, Zelensky could have played it better. But nobody came out of that looking good, and it started going downhill with Vance.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace - if Zelenky thought, because of private interactions or his best assessment of the situation, that Trump is 100% full of shit.
Let’s assume that. Then would it be a good course of action to try to expose him?
Well, I listened to the conversation, and I don't have any idea what proof you think Zelensky offered about Trump being 100% full of shit. I heard some detailed history of Russia being a bad-faith actor in negotiations and agreements, which goes back to Obama. Is that a nail in the coffin of Trump's credibility?
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I have no proof. I’m just saying - if Zelensky thought, through his own evidence or assessment - that Trump was full of shit, this might be a rational way to act.
I mean I don’t believe a word he says. I wouldn’t bet my country on his word. I know he doesn’t have many good alternatives…. Europe I guess?
Maybe that’s the next claim of 4D chess. Trump did this to get the Europeans to play more. How magnanimous he is - makes himself look bad for the good of the world.
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Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
It was actually cringey how much of a baby the American President looked like here.
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It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I was only joking
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Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
Trump does give a shit about Ukraine. I take him at his word on that.
He’s definitely anti-war.
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@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Copper said in The Ukraine war thread:
It must be gut wrenching for some of you guys to go from such a weak president to such a strong president.
Hang in there, you'll grow with his success.
OK, we've found the guy who think Trump looked great. There had to be at least one, I guess.
I predict that thinking Zelensky acted stupidly will be the mainstream viewpoint, outside Trump hating circles.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
Trump does give a shit about Ukraine. I take him at his word on that.
He’s definitely anti-war.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe if Zelensky thinks Trump is full of shit about his threats to withdraw America's support, I could agree with you.
I'm not confident that Trump is full of shit about that, though. I'm surprised if Zelensky is that confident about that. Right now I'm just assuming it was cavalier, a little bit stupid, but hopefully a temporary blip, and water under the bridge. I hope.
What if Trump has already told him in private that he’s gonna pull out. I can completely see him doing that. He’s the one who initiated the afghan pull out. He left the Kurds in the ME. He’s said he wants no more US bases around the world.
I think that is a fanciful and unbelievable hypothetical.
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Trump is the Commander-in-Chief. Like the Roman Centurian in the Bible, soldiers come when he says come and go when he says go. Since he also is the Executive, he also has a large say in when and how funds are spent.
Zelensky and the rest of y'all can howl at the moon, if you choose, but unless Europe does something totally out of character, Ukraine remains a country only with U.S. help.
