The Ukraine war thread
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wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:13 last edited by Mik
Not while Russian troops are on Crimean soil.
Chinese weaponry might make things uglier, but Russia still doesn't have an army worth a tinker's damn.
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wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:24 last edited by
Even if he can supply them, my impression is they don't want to fight. You cannot possibly win in that scenario, especially against a people fighting for their own land.
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wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 03:13 last edited by Mik
Wrong thread.
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wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 12:10 last edited by
As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.
Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.
Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.
To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.
As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.
Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.
Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.
To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.
In the last part he goes into the "cancel culture" that we're seeing in the arts regarding Russian culture. It's a bit of meandering off his main point, but interesting.
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Not while Russian troops are on Crimean soil.
Chinese weaponry might make things uglier, but Russia still doesn't have an army worth a tinker's damn.
wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 14:42 last edited by@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:
Chinese weaponry might make things uglier
Yes, but it will be good to get a look at them in action.
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As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.
Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.
Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.
To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.
As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.
Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.
Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.
To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.
In the last part he goes into the "cancel culture" that we're seeing in the arts regarding Russian culture. It's a bit of meandering off his main point, but interesting.
wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 16:03 last edited byNot much to dispute there. It accurately describes and breaks down the Russian siege mentality. I also agree that the West’s current cancelling of Russian culture is a dangerous folly. It only serves to reinforce the siege mentality inside Russia.
Since this war started I have wondered how Shostakovich would have viewed the situation. I am certain he would appalled and thoroughly depressed.
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Not much to dispute there. It accurately describes and breaks down the Russian siege mentality. I also agree that the West’s current cancelling of Russian culture is a dangerous folly. It only serves to reinforce the siege mentality inside Russia.
Since this war started I have wondered how Shostakovich would have viewed the situation. I am certain he would appalled and thoroughly depressed.
wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 16:18 last edited by@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
Not much to dispute there. It accurately describes and breaks down the Russian siege mentality
That's why I linked it. It really dovetails with what you've posted in the past.
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wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 16:22 last edited by Mik
I was searching for how many times Russia has been invaded and found this. It's something that simply is not in the American psyche, but certainly is in the Russian.
https://now.tufts.edu/2022/03/31/long-history-russia-and-war
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wrote on 23 Mar 2023, 13:23 last edited by
An interesting perspective. I rather agree. If the federation is that fragmented and weak whatever arises might be an improvement.
I especially appreciate that China is not Putin's friend. Nations don't have friends. they have interests.
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wrote on 23 Mar 2023, 14:01 last edited by
What Xi promised Putin - and most importantly what he did not.
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wrote on 24 Mar 2023, 23:02 last edited by
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wrote on 24 Mar 2023, 23:09 last edited by
This Special Military Operation is falling apart.
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wrote on 25 Mar 2023, 13:35 last edited by
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wrote on 25 Mar 2023, 13:42 last edited by
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wrote on 25 Mar 2023, 15:05 last edited by
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wrote on 25 Mar 2023, 15:09 last edited by
Like that military shotgun they showed. What a home defense weapon!
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wrote on 26 Mar 2023, 12:43 last edited by
Nukes in Belarus:
Russia will station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, President Vladimir Putin said on Saturday, marking the first time since the mid-1990s that Moscow will have based such arms outside the country.
Putin made the announcement at a time of growing tensions with the West over the Ukraine war and as some Russian commentators speculate about possible nuclear strikes.
“Tactical” nuclear weapons refer to those used for specific gains on the battlefield rather than those with the capacity to wipe out cities. It is unclear how many such weapons Russia has given it is an area still shrouded in Cold War secrecy.
Experts told Reuters the development was significant since Russia had until now been proud that, unlike the United States, it did not deploy nuclear weapons outside its borders.
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wrote on 26 Mar 2023, 13:17 last edited by
@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:
Like that military shotgun they showed. What a home defense weapon!
You can buy the Saiga in the U.S. I wouldn't want to come before the judge when the DA plops that nasty looking sucker on the evidence table.