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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Where is the Russian Air Force?

Where is the Russian Air Force?

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  • jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    I hope there’s a bunch of NATO guys sitting in Poland piloting drones.

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
    • RenaudaR Offline
      RenaudaR Offline
      Renauda
      wrote on last edited by Renauda
      #4

      I suspect the Russians simply do not feel the need to deploy its air strike forces in support of ground forces or to secure air superiority.

      Just a hunch from I have been reading.

      Elbows up!

      George KG 1 Reply Last reply
      • RenaudaR Renauda

        I suspect the Russians simply do not feel the need to deploy its air strike forces in support of ground forces or to secure air superiority.

        Just a hunch from I have been reading.

        George KG Offline
        George KG Offline
        George K
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        @Renauda said in Where is the Russian Air Force?:

        I suspect the Russians simply do not feel the need to deploy its air strike forces in support of ground forces or to secure air superiority.

        Just a hunch from I have been reading.

        That is the simplest, and probably the correct, explanation.

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

          I hope there’s a bunch of NATO guys sitting in Poland piloting drones.

          KlausK Offline
          KlausK Offline
          Klaus
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          @jon-nyc said in Where is the Russian Air Force?:

          I hope there’s a bunch of NATO guys sitting in Poland piloting drones.

          What would be the difference between that and for NATO to have boots on the ground? It would be a major steps towards a Russia vs NATO war.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
            #7

            Plausible deniability. Especially if you use Turkish drones.

            Though Russia already accused the US of manning drones that directed a naval battle. Might even be true, through the US denies it.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            ImprovisoI 1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              Plausible deniability. Especially if you use Turkish drones.

              Though Russia already accused the US of manning drones that directed a naval battle. Might even be true, through the US denies it.

              ImprovisoI Offline
              ImprovisoI Offline
              Improviso
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              @jon-nyc said in Where is the Russian Air Force?:

              Plausible deniability.

              Yep... it's served the Clinton's well for decades.

              We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
              Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • George KG Offline
                George KG Offline
                George K
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-happened-russias-air-force-us-officials-experts-stumped-2022-03-01/

                "There's a lot of stuff they're doing that's perplexing," said Rob Lee, a Russian military specialist at the Foreign Policy Research Institute.

                He thought the beginning of the war would be "maximum use of force."

                "Because every day it goes on there's a cost and the risk goes up. And they're not doing that and it just is really hard to explain for any realistic reason."

                The confusion over how Russia has used its air force comes as President Joe Biden's administration rejects calls by Kyiv for a no-fly zone that could draw the United States directly into a conflict with Russia, whose plans for its air force are unclear.

                Military experts have seen evidence of a lack of Russian air force coordination with ground troop formations, with multiple Russian columns of troops sent forward beyond the reach of their own air defense cover.

                That leaves Russian soldiers vulnerable to attack from Ukrainian forces, including those newly equipped with Turkish drones and U.S. and British anti-tank missiles.

                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  Other comment in the thread:

                  "Russian forces are significantly holding back. Trying to minimize both civilian and Ukrainian military casualties - a vain attempt to win hearts and minds and limit anger/outrage. This has failed and attacks will now be stepped up."

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    It’s like a puppy is getting tortured in front of the whole world.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • George KG Offline
                      George KG Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Is the Russian Air Force Actually Incapable of Complex Air Operations?

                      While the early VKS failure to establish air superiority could be explained by lack of early warning, coordination capacity and sufficient planning time, the continued pattern of activity suggests a more significant conclusion: that the VKS lacks the institutional capacity to plan, brief and fly complex air operations at scale. There is significant circumstantial evidence to support this, admittedly tentative, explanation.

                      First, while the VKS has gained significant combat experience in complex air environments over Syria since 2015, it has only operated aircraft in small formations during those operations. Single aircraft, pairs or occasionally four-ships have been the norm. When different types of aircraft have been seen operating together, they have generally only comprised two pairs at most. Aside from prestige events such as Victory Day parade flypasts, the VKS also conducts the vast majority of its training flights in singles or pairs. This means that its operational commanders have very little practical experience of how to plan, brief and coordinate complex air operations involving tens or hundreds of assets in a high-threat air environment. This is a factor that many Western airpower specialists and practitioners often overlook due to the ubiquity of complex air operations – run through combined air operations centres – to Western military operations over Iraq, the Balkans, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria over the past 20 years.

                      Second, most VKS pilots get around 100 hours’ (and in many cases less) flying time per year – around half of that flown by most NATO air forces. They also lack comparable modern simulator facilities to train and practise advanced tactics in complex environments. The live flying hours which Russian fighter pilots do get are also significantly less valuable in preparing pilots for complex air operations than those flown by NATO forces. In Western air forces such as the RAF and US Air Force, pilots are rigorously trained to fly complex sorties in appalling weather, at low level and against live and simulated ground and aerial threats. To pass advanced fast jet training they must be able to reliably do this and still hit targets within five to ten seconds of the planned time-on-target. This is a vital skill for frontline missions to allow multiple elements of a complex strike package to sequence their manoeuvres and attacks safely and effectively, even when under fire and in poor visibility. It also takes a long time to train for and regular live flying and simulator time to stay current at. By contrast, most VKS frontline training sorties involve comparatively sterile environments, and simple tasks such as navigation flights, unguided weapon deliveries at open ranges, and target simulation flying in cooperation with the ground-based air-defence system. Russia lacks access to a training and exercise architecture to rival that available to NATO air forces, which routinely train together at well-instrumented ranges in the Mediterranean, North Sea, Canada and the US. Russia also has no equivalent to the large-scale complex air exercises with realistic threat simulation which NATO members hold annually – the most famous of which is Red Flag. As such, it would be unsurprising if most Russian pilots lack the proficiency to operate effectively as part of large, mixed formations executing complex and dynamic missions under fire.

                      Third, if the VKS were capable of conducting complex air operations, it should have been comparatively simple for them to have achieved air superiority over Ukraine. The small number of remaining Ukrainian fighters, conducting heroic air-defence efforts over their own cities, are forced to operate at low altitudes due to long-range Russian SAM systems and consequently have comparatively limited situational awareness and endurance. They ought to be relatively easily to overwhelm for the far more numerous, better armed and more advanced VKS fighters arranged around the Ukrainian borders. Ukrainian mobile medium- and short-range SAM systems such as SA-11 and SA-15 have had successes against Russian helicopters and fast jets. However, large Russian strike aircraft packages flying at medium or high altitude with escorting fighters would be able to rapidly find and strike any Ukrainian SAMs which unmasked their position by firing at them. They would lose aircraft in the process, but would be able to attrit the remaining SAMs and rapidly establish air superiority.

                      Russia has every incentive to establish air superiority, and on paper should be more than capable of doing so if it commits to combat operations in large, mixed formations to suppress and hunt down Ukrainian fighters and SAM systems. Instead, the VKS continues to only operate in very small numbers and at low level to minimise the threat from the Ukrainian SAMs. Down low, their situational awareness and combat effectiveness is limited, and they are well within range of the MANPADS such as Igla and Stinger which Ukrainian forces already possess. The numbers of MANPADS are also increasing, as numerous Western countries send supplies to beleaguered Ukrainian forces. To avoid additional losses to MANPADS, sorties continue to be primarily flown at night, which further limits the effectiveness of their mostly unguided air-to-ground weapons.

                      This explanation may yet prove to be false; the VKS may suddenly start mounting large-scale complex air operations comparable to those routinely conducted by NATO states and other modern air forces such as Israel. If it does not, however, it will have profound implications for its potential combat power against Ukrainian forces in the coming weeks, and its value as a conventional deterrence tool against Western countries.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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