Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court

[Larry]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

The idea that Homo sapiens possess 'natural' rights is objectively false.

Go back 30,000 years on the Savanah and tell me what 'natural rights' we had.

The only way the sentiment can really be understood is as an 'ought', not an 'is'.

Something more like "there exist a set of fundamental rights that all humans should have, and society should recognize and respect those rights"

That is a dangerous, scary way of seeing the issue. And I disagree with that 1000%.

[jon-nyc]

Ok, then feel free to correct me. What natural rights did Homo Sapiens possess on the savanna 30,000 years ago?

[Larry]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Ok, then feel free to correct me. What natural rights did Homo Sapiens possess on the savanna 30,000 years ago?

What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

[jon-nyc]

Natural rights are not granted by society (government) but inhere to the individual. So what rights inhered to people 30k years ago?

Or, as I suggested, are “natural rights” to be understood in an “ought” rather than an “is” framework? Something they should be granted?

Or am I speaking Greek to you?

[Horace]

Is there a definition of "natural rights" which indicates they are necessarily enforceable? If such rights aren't necessarily enforceable, then we are all free to believe in whatever rights we would like to believe in.

[jon-nyc]

Horace agrees with my post that upset Larry so

[Larry]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Natural rights are not granted by society (government) but inhere to the individual. So what rights inhered to people 30k years ago?

Or, as I suggested, are “natural rights” to be understood in an “ought” rather than an “is” framework? Something they should be granted?

Or am I speaking Greek to you?

I agree with you that natural rights are not granted by government. I disagree with your equating government with society. Societies set up governments, government is not society, and fuck 30,000 years ago. It has nothing to do with anything.

[jon-nyc]

I was speaking Greek to you apparently. You misunderstood every single sentence.

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Horace agrees with my post that upset Larry so

I made the same point on april 3. I don't actually consider this distinction between natural rights and socially conferred rights to be meaningful to the discussion, especially after one realizes that natural rights wouldn't extend beyond an ability to try do whatever you want to. But everything else has that right too. So you may get eaten, or put into jail, or whatever.

[Larry]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

I was speaking Greek to you apparently. You misunderstood every single sentence.

Maybe we arent using the same definition of "natural rights".

[jon-nyc]

Well I don’t know how you conceive “inalienable” rights in anything but a normative framework.

Because obviously they are all quite alienable and were alienated for most of humanity for most of history.

[jon-nyc]

@Larry said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

I was speaking Greek to you apparently. You misunderstood every single sentence.

Maybe we arent using the same definition of "natural rights".

Then reread my original post maybe you’ll agree with it. It seems objectively true.

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Well I don’t know how you conceive “inalienable” rights in anything but a normative framework.

Because obviously they are all quite alienable and were alienated for most of humanity for most of history.

"Do exist, and ought to be enforced". There, done.

[jon-nyc]

You spelled “should exist” wrong.

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

You spelled “should exist” wrong.

Only if you assume that rights do not exist without enforcement. I make no such assumption.

[Klaus]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Natural rights are not granted by society (government) but inhere to the individual. So what rights inhered to people 30k years ago?

Or, as I suggested, are “natural rights” to be understood in an “ought” rather than an “is” framework? Something they should be granted?

The way I see it: You can of course not look at our touch natural rights. You cannot discover them with science.

That does not mean they don't exist.

My somewhat Schopenhauer-esque take on the issue is that we can "will" natural rights into existence. Each of us makes a choice of whether natural rights exist or not. That's not the same as "should exist".

[Ivorythumper]

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Ok, then feel free to correct me. What natural rights did Homo Sapiens possess on the savanna 30,000 years ago?

@jon-nyc said in Biden to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to Supreme Court:

Natural rights are not granted by society (government) but inhere to the individual. So what rights inhered to people 30k years ago?

The same natural rights as all human have. Rights are principally grounded in moral responsibility, since the moral agent must be free to act morally in respect of one's obligations.

Obviously systems of governance and law and philosophy have developed which better understand, recognize, and uphold the rights of man than whatever occurred on the plains of Africa 30,000 years ago. But the rights have always inhered in the human person as a moral agent.

Or, as I suggested, are “natural rights” to be understood in an “ought” rather than an “is” framework?

As the law is ordered to the common good as a matter of justice, and the recognition of natural human rights are required for a just society, the State (those in charge of the community) have the moral obligation to establish laws which respect the natural rights of the members of the society. This is necessary that all members of the society might be able to fulfill their moral obligations to self, family, and society.

Something they should be granted?

Yes, not only should but the State morally must uphold the natural rights of the members of the society. The validation of the authority, as the raison d'être of the State, is found in the ability to establish, promote, and maintain the common good. The common good is the very order of society which allows for human flourishing.

Or am I speaking Greek to you?

It's easier in Latin, if you prefer.

[jon-nyc]

Again that seems obviously false.

I mean, how much sense does it make to go to the landfill near an abortion clinic in California and dig up a fetus and tell him he has and had the right to life, it just wasn’t enforced. But - and this is important, Mr Fetus - do rest assured that the right was inalienable.

“Inalienable rights are alienable rights” is nonsense. This topic is purely normative.

[Horace]

"Rights are necessarily enforceable, or they aren't rights" seems like a strange hill to die on. Is there a number of murders per capita allowed before we concede that people don't have a right not to be murdered, after all?

[jon-nyc]

It’s that we recognize that it’s normative. But even in your example it is societally contingent.

Again, imagine 30kya Horace with 4 male relatives waiting patiently for a lion to tire of his kill, so you and your friends could get the scraps. You enjoy it for 30m only to be chased off by hyenas.

What does it really mean to say you had “inalienable rights” granted by your creator?