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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Giving up nuclear weapons.

Giving up nuclear weapons.

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  • G Offline
    G Offline
    George K
    wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 13:40 last edited by
    #2

    Link to video

    Ukraine's foreign minister comments. Go to 19:04.

    “Ukraine abandoned the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world” for “security guarantees” promised by the U.S.”

    alt text

    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

    R J 2 Replies Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 19:10
    • G George K
      23 Feb 2022, 13:40

      Link to video

      Ukraine's foreign minister comments. Go to 19:04.

      “Ukraine abandoned the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world” for “security guarantees” promised by the U.S.”

      alt text

      R Offline
      R Offline
      Renauda
      wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 19:10 last edited by Renauda
      #3

      @George-K

      ”Ukraine abandoned the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world” for “security guarantees” promised by the U.S.””

      That’s not quite accurate. The US paid Ukraine huge sums in direct foreign aid and technical assistance for it to give up those nukes. The US did not provide any security guarantees and nor was it obliged to in the Budapest Accord and MOU signed between The US, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine,Belarus and Kazakhstan. What the US, UK and France did agree to was act on Ukraine’s, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan’s behalf with the UN Security Council in the event they are the target of any unprovoked “third party” aggression.

      Elbows up!

      G 1 Reply Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 20:47
      • R Renauda
        23 Feb 2022, 19:10

        @George-K

        ”Ukraine abandoned the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world” for “security guarantees” promised by the U.S.””

        That’s not quite accurate. The US paid Ukraine huge sums in direct foreign aid and technical assistance for it to give up those nukes. The US did not provide any security guarantees and nor was it obliged to in the Budapest Accord and MOU signed between The US, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine,Belarus and Kazakhstan. What the US, UK and France did agree to was act on Ukraine’s, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan’s behalf with the UN Security Council in the event they are the target of any unprovoked “third party” aggression.

        G Offline
        G Offline
        George K
        wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 20:47 last edited by
        #4

        @Renauda said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:
        Budapest Accord

        https://www.treatylaw.org/budapest-accord-treaty/

        The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

        Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

        Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

        Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

        Confirm the following:

        1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
        2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
        3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
        4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
        5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
        6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

        #2 seems pretty explicit: "Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity ... of Ukraine."

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        R 1 Reply Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 21:45
        • G George K
          23 Feb 2022, 20:47

          @Renauda said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:
          Budapest Accord

          https://www.treatylaw.org/budapest-accord-treaty/

          The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

          Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

          Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

          Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

          Confirm the following:

          1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
          2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
          3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
          4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
          5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
          6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

          #2 seems pretty explicit: "Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity ... of Ukraine."

          R Offline
          R Offline
          Renauda
          wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 21:45 last edited by Renauda
          #5

          @George-K

          There is no security guarantee contained in there that obliges the US to do anything in the event of Russian aggression against Ukraine. Certainly no military obligation to come to Ukraine’s assistance. At the very least diplomatic support. At the most the supply of defence technologies and economic sanctions. All of which the US has been doing since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.

          So I would argue that the US has lived up to its obligations albeit inconsistently and reactively. No coherent policy that would enable it to force Russia to listen and take a step back. This has always enabled the Kremlin to steer the events and the diplomacy around Ukraine as it wishes.

          Elbows up!

          G 1 Reply Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 22:07
          • R Renauda
            23 Feb 2022, 21:45

            @George-K

            There is no security guarantee contained in there that obliges the US to do anything in the event of Russian aggression against Ukraine. Certainly no military obligation to come to Ukraine’s assistance. At the very least diplomatic support. At the most the supply of defence technologies and economic sanctions. All of which the US has been doing since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.

            So I would argue that the US has lived up to its obligations albeit inconsistently and reactively. No coherent policy that would enable it to force Russia to listen and take a step back. This has always enabled the Kremlin to steer the events and the diplomacy around Ukraine as it wishes.

            G Offline
            G Offline
            George K
            wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 22:07 last edited by
            #6

            @Renauda said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:

            @George-K

            There is no security guarantee contained in there that obliges the US to do anything in the event of Russian aggression against Ukraine.

            True. But it clearly states that the signatories will not use force against Ukraine.

            Ah, well, it's just a piece of paper.

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • G George K
              23 Feb 2022, 13:40

              Link to video

              Ukraine's foreign minister comments. Go to 19:04.

              “Ukraine abandoned the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world” for “security guarantees” promised by the U.S.”

              alt text

              J Offline
              J Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 22:16 last edited by
              #7

              alt text

              See above...

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              1 Reply Last reply
              • G Offline
                G Offline
                George K
                wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 22:32 last edited by
                #8

                Also, from what you say @Renauda , it seems that the foreign secretary has a misunderstanding of the treaty as well.

                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                R L 2 Replies Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 22:43
                • G George K
                  23 Feb 2022, 22:32

                  Also, from what you say @Renauda , it seems that the foreign secretary has a misunderstanding of the treaty as well.

                  R Offline
                  R Offline
                  Renauda
                  wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 22:43 last edited by
                  #9

                  @George-K

                  My first sentence was that his statement was not quite accurate. I meant it too.

                  Elbows up!

                  G 1 Reply Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 22:43
                  • R Renauda
                    23 Feb 2022, 22:43

                    @George-K

                    My first sentence was that his statement was not quite accurate. I meant it too.

                    G Offline
                    G Offline
                    George K
                    wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 22:43 last edited by
                    #10

                    @Renauda that was my point in my remark just above your latest.

                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • G George K
                      23 Feb 2022, 22:32

                      Also, from what you say @Renauda , it seems that the foreign secretary has a misunderstanding of the treaty as well.

                      L Offline
                      L Offline
                      LuFins Dad
                      wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 23:40 last edited by
                      #11

                      @George-K said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:

                      Also, from what you say @Renauda , it seems that the foreign secretary has a misunderstanding of the treaty as well.

                      Much more likely that he has a full understanding, but would prefer to twist to his needs…

                      The Brad

                      G 1 Reply Last reply 23 Feb 2022, 23:48
                      • L LuFins Dad
                        23 Feb 2022, 23:40

                        @George-K said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:

                        Also, from what you say @Renauda , it seems that the foreign secretary has a misunderstanding of the treaty as well.

                        Much more likely that he has a full understanding, but would prefer to twist to his needs…

                        G Offline
                        G Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on 23 Feb 2022, 23:48 last edited by
                        #12

                        @LuFins-Dad said in Giving up nuclear weapons.:

                        Much more likely that he has a full understanding, but would prefer to twist to his needs…

                        Such a cynic you are.

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • J Offline
                          J Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on 24 Feb 2022, 00:35 last edited by
                          #13

                          Positively slavic...

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • L Offline
                            L Offline
                            Larry
                            wrote on 24 Feb 2022, 00:51 last edited by
                            #14

                            The one who promised to not use military force against Ukraine was Putin. His actions make him a war criminal.

                            R 1 Reply Last reply 24 Feb 2022, 01:49
                            • L Larry
                              24 Feb 2022, 00:51

                              The one who promised to not use military force against Ukraine was Putin. His actions make him a war criminal.

                              R Offline
                              R Offline
                              Renauda
                              wrote on 24 Feb 2022, 01:49 last edited by
                              #15

                              @Larry

                              I agree.

                              Elbows up!

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