What is "Classical" music?

[Larry]

Does classical music evolve?

[George K]

@larry said in What is "Classical" music?:

Does "classical" music evolve?

Oh, yeah. And how.

I inserted the "scare quotes," by the way.

And, to be honest, I'm not all that fond of where it's going. I really like the works of Pärt, Bates and others. Much more accessible than the "plinkety-plink" shit of the late 1960s.

"Pop" music evolves as well. But, as I said, "Rap ain't music."

[Renauda]

@george-k

You and I can agree that rap is not music but only time will be the ultimate judge as to whether it is or isn’t.

I remember reading that by the 1970’s Muddy Waters realised that when he played live his audience no longer consisted of young black folks. American blacks stopped listening to blues sometime in the 1960s and turned their attention to the dance music of soul and Mowtown. Rap and its offshoots then replaced soul and Mowtown with the next generations of black youth. Today the people who listen to Blues are geezers like you and I plus white outlaw bikers.

[Larry]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

@larry said in What is "Classical" music?:

Does "classical" music evolve?

Oh, yeah. And how.

I inserted the "scare quotes," by the way.

And, to be honest, I'm not all that fond of where it's going. I really like the works of Pärt, Bates and others. Much more accessible than the "plinkety-plink" shit of the late 1960s.

"Pop" music evolves as well. But, as I said, "Rap ain't music."

Does any classical music tell a story?

[George K]

@larry said in What is "Classical" music?:

Does any classical music tell a story?

Does music have to?

That was the basis of many of the early "Romantic" works (see Beethoven #6, and much of Mahler).

I don't think it did until the early 19th century, and moved away from that direction later.

[Horace]

I’ve heard it said that a beat is the most fundamental aspect of music. More fundamental than melody or harmony or tone or dynamics. To that extent rap is a stripped down and essential form of music.

[Larry]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

@larry said in What is "Classical" music?:

Does any classical music tell a story?

Does music have to?

No, music doesn't have to tell a story. But if a story is told well it can reach down into your soul and grab your emotions like no other music can. Should such music be relegated to "ear candy"?

[Klaus]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

Much more accessible than the "plinkety-plink" shit of the late 1960s.

I agree. There are a couple of 21th century "classical" composers who have understood that music is not a pure intellectual exercise and who make compelling music again.

[Larry]

@horace said in What is "Classical" music?:

I’ve heard it said that a beat is the most fundamental aspect of music. More fundamental than melody or harmony or tone or dynamics. To that extent rap is a stripped down and essential form of music.

Rap takes on many forms. Many of them amount to nothing more than some no talent wannabe who can look "thug" wanting to be famous. They have no redeeming value, their lyrics are harmful to the listener,and they are a wart on the ass of music. Some however, actually display some musical skill and talent. But not many.

Rap can be a force of good among its audience, if the writer/performer chooses to take advantage of that. Unfortunately far too many of the rap artists aren't interested in being a benefit to anyone, they're only interested in buying the right whoopdy ( a crap car with lots of "bling") and loading up on gold chains and rings and rooster stepping in front of their friends..

[Klaus]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

"Classical," is often described as "serious" music. It's not ear candy, and demands of the listener to pay attention. However, it's (usually) not as open to improvisation, so it's reproducible.

I think at that coarse level, it makes more sense to view music in terms of its evolution and not so much about its properties, similar to how we classify species in terms of their heritage. If you zoom in and talk about, say, the "common practice period" or even something like the "Romantic" or "Classical" (in the narrow sense) period, then you can talk about things like musical form, functional harmony, etc.

[Doctor Phibes]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

"Classical," is often described as "serious" music. It's not ear candy, and demands of the listener to pay attention. However, it's (usually) not as open to improvisation, so it's reproducible.

It wasn't always like that. Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin were all monster improvisers.

I think it's gone backwards in that regard. All people really do now is 'interpret'. It's objectively a much less creative process.

[George K]

@doctor-phibes said in What is "Classical" music?:

It wasn't always like that. Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin were all monster improvisers.

Indeed. I think Beethoven participated in some "improvisation competitions."

As I said, that died out by the end of the 19th century.

[Doctor Phibes]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

As I said, that died out by the end of the 19th century.

Which is a bit sad. It means that the music of that era is stuck, and the most people can do is re-interpret rather than create.

A bit like what Wynton Marsalis seems to want to do to jazz - he still champions improvisation, but innovation, not so much.

[Klaus]

@george-k said in What is "Classical" music?:

@doctor-phibes said in What is "Classical" music?:

It wasn't always like that. Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin were all monster improvisers.

Indeed. I think Beethoven participated in some "improvisation competitions."

As I said, that died out by the end of the 19th century.

It does have a limited revival, though. Alma Deutscher. Gabriela Montero. Conrad Tao. A couple more. Not a lot, but it's a start.

[Jolly]

In the Honor Harrington SF series, one of the planets was originally settled by Christians somewhat akin to Mormons. The planet is known for its affectation for an obscure form of classical music, Country & Western.

[Larry]

I wonder what kind of music Liszt would have written if he had gotten his hands on an 88 key workstation....,,

[LuFins Dad]

George, the definition changes a lot depending on whether you are talking about a musician actually playing the music, a musician listening to the music, or a non-musician listening. The fact is that for most listeners, Classical Music is more “ear candy” than any other type/style.

Also, most classical = country directly… Classical music is strongly influenced by and in many cases directly rips off folk music of various cultures. That folk music is as country as country gets…

[Axtremus]

My "today's musical interlude" :

Link to video

[Renauda]

@lufins-dad said in What is "Classical" music?:

George, the definition changes a lot depending on whether you are talking about a musician actually playing the music, a musician listening to the music, or a non-musician listening. The fact is that for most listeners, Classical Music is more “ear candy” than any other type/style.

Also, most classical = country directly… Classical music is strongly influenced by and in many cases directly rips off folk music of various cultures. That folk music is as country as country gets…

True enough though I think we now tend to think of it as cliche more than ear candy. But in my parents’ generation it was definitely ear candy.

Exactly right about the folk music influence. From Haydn and throughout the Romantic period. All the big name composers relied heavily on folk music for melodic lines. Even sometimes harmonic ideas if they wanted to sound “oriental” or nationalist. A lot of folk themes used in 20th century classical as well. Not just by Bartok either.

[LuFins Dad]

Where do Polkas land in this spectrum?