To Mask or Not To Mask?

[jon-nyc]

[Mik]

[George K]

The science is settled - not:

[Aqua Letifer]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

The science is settled - not:

Show me in the article where it explains the scientific basis for masks being ineffective.

[George K]

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

The science is settled - not:

Show me in the article where it explains the scientific basis for masks being ineffective.

I am mask-agnostic, being of the mind "it couldn't hurt," and so I wear one any time I'm out of the house.

However, the burden of proof is that you have to show that they work.

[Aqua Letifer]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

I am mask-agnostic, being of the mind "it couldn't hurt," and so I wear one any time I'm out of the house.
However, the burden of proof is that you have to show that they work.

I've read several articles and even watched a VR simulation of droplet & aerosol spreading, showing how masks of various fiber densities are effective in dampening the spread. It's not like this shit's a secret.

[George K]

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

I am mask-agnostic, being of the mind "it couldn't hurt," and so I wear one any time I'm out of the house.
However, the burden of proof is that you have to show that they work.

I've read several articles and even watched a VR simulation of droplet & aerosol spreading, showing how masks of various fiber densities are effective in dampening the spread. It's not like this shit's a secret.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, and, once again, I think people should mask.

But my point is that models of aerosol spread, etc don't necessarily reflect effectiveness in preventing spread. What happens in a petri dish isn't necessarily what happens in the real world.

[Aqua Letifer]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

I am mask-agnostic, being of the mind "it couldn't hurt," and so I wear one any time I'm out of the house.
However, the burden of proof is that you have to show that they work.

I've read several articles and even watched a VR simulation of droplet & aerosol spreading, showing how masks of various fiber densities are effective in dampening the spread. It's not like this shit's a secret.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, and, once again, I think people should mask.

But my point is that models of aerosol spread, etc don't necessarily reflect effectiveness in preventing spread. What happens in a petri dish isn't necessarily what happens in the real world.

So how could the physics be such that masks don't prevent spread? How does that look scientifically? To make it clear I'm talking N95s.

[George K]

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

So how could the physics be such that masks don't prevent spread? How does that look scientifically? To make it clear I'm talking N95s.

Ah, well, that's different. The percentage of people I see wearing N95s is remarkably small. I was out of the house twice today, and I saw zero N95s. Some people are wearing those construction-type masks with a replaceable filter - those might actually make things worse, because they're one-way - you can breathe shit out, but not in.

Several large studies of the operating room environment have shown that wearing masks by the surgical staff does little to prevent infection in patients (granted we're talking bacteria here), but are useful in protecting the staff. It's my understanding that in Great Britain, only the staff actually at the table wear masks - anesthesiologist anesthetist and circulating nurse do not.

[Catseye3]

I think there's a point beyond which you're talking angels on pinheads, mask effectiveness-wise.

It's a crapshoot, no matter how well you're protected or think you're protected. I was standing in line at a store register recently, the patrons were all being good about distancing (though not about masks). I thought to my (masked) self, what if some guy walked through the space where I'm standing 60 seconds ago and I'm standing in a cloud of his exhale. How good a protective job is this cockamamie mask doing? And how can I know? How contagion-heavy was his viral load (if that's the correct term)? How susceptible am I generally, and how susceptible am I to his particular exhalation? What are the odds I'll get sick from his stuff, and how sick will I get?

Don't know. Don't know. Don't know. Don't know. Don't know.

[Aqua Letifer]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

Ah, well, that's different. The percentage of people I see wearing N95s is remarkably small. I was out of the house twice today, and I saw zero N95s.

But what about their effectiveness? Surgical masks are not N95s. And those kinds of masks are common enough around here.

[Doctor Phibes]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

in Great Britain, ... - anesthesiologist anesthetist anaesthetist and circulating nurse do not.

FIFY....YKNR

[LuFins Dad]

I’ve gone with the whole philosophy that I wear a mask to protect others and I rely on them wearing a mask to protect me, and have generally been fine with a cloth mask or blue surgical mask. However, today was the Luke’s first day at Walmart and I had to spend a day at Costco? So I bought a couple packs of those KN95 cloth masks at Lowe’s. I get that they aren’t as reliable as N-95, but good luck finding those.

[Horace]

I am unashamedly just going along with whatever the crowd expects of me, regarding mask wearing. I am not very good at having high conviction beliefs about an allegedly scientific fact that I can't figure out from ground principles on my own. So I don't have this visceral reaction against people who don't believe they help. But I go along.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Horace said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

I am unashamedly just going along with whatever the crowd expects of me, regarding mask wearing. I am not very good at having high conviction beliefs about an allegedly scientific fact that I can't figure out from ground principles on my own. So I don't have this visceral reaction against people who don't believe they help. But I go along.

jon already called dibs on being the most reasonable objectivist. No sense campaigning for a filled position.

[Horace]

jon taught me everything I know.

[taiwan_girl]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

I am mask-agnostic, being of the mind "it couldn't hurt," and so I wear one any time I'm out of the house.
However, the burden of proof is that you have to show that they work.

I've read several articles and even watched a VR simulation of droplet & aerosol spreading, showing how masks of various fiber densities are effective in dampening the spread. It's not like this shit's a secret.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, and, once again, I think people should mask.

But my point is that models of aerosol spread, etc don't necessarily reflect effectiveness in preventing spread. What happens in a petri dish isn't necessarily what happens in the real world.

To me it is just common sense. Directionally, masks have to help prevent the spread.

Think of an open window:

There are 100 mosquitos outside, 5 of which carry the malaria. With an open window and 100 mosquitos, you have a 5% chance of getting bit by a malaria mosquito.

Now, we add a screen to that window, which will block (for example) 50% of the mosquitos from getting through.

Now, out of that 100 mosquitos, you only have a 2.5% chance of getting bit by a malaria mosquito.

Is the screen perfect?? NO, but it is in the direction of helping.

I know, I know, I know, very simple way to thinking of it and not perfect but I think you get the idea.

For me, that is how I think of masks. They are not perfect, but they are in the direction of helping.

[George K]

@taiwan_girl said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

To me it is just common sense. Directionally, masks have to help prevent the spread.

Think of an open window:

There are 100 mosquitos outside, 5 of which carry the malaria. With an open window and 100 mosquitos, you have a 5% chance of getting bit by a malaria mosquito.

Now, we add a screen to that window, which will block (for example) 50% of the mosquitos from getting through.

Now, out of that 100 mosquitos, you only have a 2.5% chance of getting bit by a malaria mosquito.

Is the screen perfect?? NO, but it is in the direction of helping.

I know, I know, I know, very simple way to thinking of it and not perfect but I think you get the idea.

For me, that is how I think of masks. They are not perfect, but they are in the direction of helping.

Of course, you're right.

And, just to be clear, I'm not defending not wearing masks. If my comments came across that way, it was certainly not my intent. I'm simply pointing to an article from another country whose health officials say that masks are irrelevant to the spread of disease. I think they're wrong, but I have yet to see any hard evidence that masks actually work. Yeah, as you and Aqua pointed out, it certainly makes good sense, but, as I said, "let's see the science" and not the speculation.

At the present time, it makes a lot of sense to take every possible precaution. To not do so would be dangerous and foolhardy. Years from now, let's see what the books written about this have to say.

Am I being clear here?

[taiwan_girl]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

Am I being clear here?

Yep!

[Copper]

@George-K said in To Mask or Not To Mask?:

Yeah, as you and Aqua pointed out, it certainly makes good sense, but, as I said, "let's see the science" and not the speculation.

Am I being clear here?

This https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

offers some evidence

But not cost/benefit analysis

For the sake of argument, let's say there is some benefit. By benefit, I mean the number of covid cases is reduced.

How much benefit?

At what cost?

Shut-up