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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Puzzle time - Covering numbers

Puzzle time - Covering numbers

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  • KlausK Offline
    KlausK Offline
    Klaus
    wrote on last edited by Klaus
    #1

    It's not too hard to google the solution to this one. Give it a try first. It's mind-bending.

    An open interval (a,b) is the set of real numbers between a and b excluding a and b itself. The length of (a,b) is the absolute value of a-b.

    A covering of a set S of numbers is a set of open intervals such that the union of all the intervals contains S. The length of the covering is the sum of the length of all the open intervals.

    We are interested in covering the open set of rational numbers between 0 and 1.

    One covering would be the interval (0,1) itself. Its length is 1.

    Another covering would be the intervals (0, (sqrt 2)/2) and (sqrt 2)/2,1). It doesn't cover (sqrt 2)/2, but that's an irrational number, so it's still a covering of the rational numbers between 0 and 1. Its length is also 1.

    Your task is to find a covering whose length is strictly smaller than 1. Just for fun, let's make this progressively harder. If you post your solution in post number n, then the length of your covering can be at most 1/n.

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    • AxtremusA Away
      AxtremusA Away
      Axtremus
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      (0,1/4), (3/4,1)

      KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
      • AxtremusA Axtremus

        (0,1/4), (3/4,1)

        KlausK Offline
        KlausK Offline
        Klaus
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        @axtremus said in Puzzle time - Covering numbers:

        (0,1/4), (3/4,1)

        That doesn't cover all rational numbers. For instance, 1/2 isn't covered.

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        • KlausK Offline
          KlausK Offline
          Klaus
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Hint 1: You need to make use of the fact that there are so much fewer rational numbers than real numbers.

          Hint 2: Not surprisingly, your covering needs to contain an infinite number of intervals.

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          • jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            The rationals between 0 and 1 are countable; you can write them in order. Put an interval around the first (in your list of rationals) of width 2^(-k-1), the next of width 2^(-k-2), and so on. Their length sum after intersecting each of these intervals with (0,1) is at most 2^(-k). Done.

            "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
            -Cormac McCarthy

            KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              The rationals between 0 and 1 are countable; you can write them in order. Put an interval around the first (in your list of rationals) of width 2^(-k-1), the next of width 2^(-k-2), and so on. Their length sum after intersecting each of these intervals with (0,1) is at most 2^(-k). Done.

              KlausK Offline
              KlausK Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on last edited by Klaus
              #6

              @jon-nyc Exactly. You can make the length of the covering as small as you want. It's counter-intuitive, given that there's infinitely many rational numbers between any two real numbers.

              The main trick here is how to count the rationals. The most common method goes something like this.

              605aaefe-1ba9-49eb-ad74-a247cd8a868c-image.png

              I think this result can also be interpreted as "the amount of rational numbers is negligible compared to the amount of real numbers", which is also true measure-theoretically: If you compute the area covered by the function

              f(x) = 1 if x rational and 0 otherwise

              then the result is 0.

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              • jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                It’s as counter-intuitive as Zeno’s paradox. There’s an infinite number of rational numbers but they’re covered by increasingly small ranges. Like Zeno needs an infinite number of steps but each gets increasingly smaller.

                "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                -Cormac McCarthy

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